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LED Turn Signal Indicators(Green Arrows) not working
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telford dorr
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would probably be better to remove the indicator wire from KBL and reconnect to 49a - just in case the KBL flasher output decides to start working again...

Positive ground? No... not on a VW (unless you're using 'positive' as an affirmation). I think he meant the indicator lamp common terminals were tied to +12 instead of ground. In this configuration, you ground the lamp to illuminate it (just like the OIL and GEN lamps).
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea that's what I mean. Not that the electrons are flowing the other way, but the flasher relay is grounding the lights.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:19 pm    Post subject: Turn Signal Indicators(Green Arrows) not working. Reply with quote

Hello out there!
I would like to thank all the people who commented on this topic. Just as a little more feedback I have used the KBL and 49A jumped wire configuration on the flasher relay for almost 2 years now. There have not been any issues and the signal indicators have worked fine. As you can tell by the date of this post I have not been on the forum for a while. Looking back on the discussion I felt I needed to write this post to clear things up a little. Like I said, jumping or piggybacking 49A to KBL worked fine. The obvious thing is that, and it was mentioned in the the posts I think, the green signal indicators on the dash are not synchronized with the signal indicators at the 4 corners of the van. In other words, the dash signal indicators(green Arrows) do not light up at the same time as the indicators at the 4 corners of the bus. This is the only difference between the factory set up. Once again thanks busdaddy, sped372, soissisc, and all others who commented on this informative post!!!!!!
Just as a side note, I think the new flasher relay, which was purchased for $5 or $10 is not as robust as the original VW mechanical/electrical relay. So, I am saying that the new transistor based construction of the new relay could not handle the current which was delivered by the green arrow light bulbs.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Repost of the content from the nls.net link cited earlier, for public edification --

Quote:
4-Terminal Flasher Internal Circuitry


The drawing below shows the electronic circuit inside a typical 4-terminal flasher. Note that there were many variations of this circuit design over the years.

2 transistors. Q1 and Q2, form a multivibrator which drives the Flash relay in the collector circuit of Q1. A small voltage is always present on 49a by way of the 2K resistor (the Load Sense relay has only a few turns of very heavy wire for its coil). When the Turn Indicator signal switch is closed, the turn lamps are connected from Ground to Terminal #49a. Their low resistance drags the voltage at 49a down to nearly zero which, in turn, pulls the base of Q2 lower. Q2 is held in the On state by the 2K resistor when the Turn Indicator is idle. The lowered base drive now allows Q2 to begin turning Off. As it does, the base of Q1 is driven On, energizing the relay and causing the Turn Signals to immediately light.

The 2K resistor is now pulled up to the full 12V level which increases the base drive available to Q2. However, the 100 uf timing capacitor doesn't permit Q2 to turn On immediately. Current continues to flow until the capacitor has charged via the 800 Ohm resistor. At that time, Q2 turns On and allows Q1 to drop out the relay, turning off the lamps. This cycle repeats, with the capacitor charging and discharging.

The dash/speedo signal lamp for the Indicators is connected from +12V to Terminal KBL. Current flow from the Turn Indicator bulbs closes the relay contacts and lights the dash signal. This is why the dash signal flashes in time with the Turn Indicators.
The Load Sense relay "measures" the lamp current. If one lamp burns out, the relay will not close its contacts, and the dash/speedo signal bulb which is connected to KBL will not light, alerting the driver to a burned out bulb.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
[/img]
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you HerrMahnenschmidt quoting the wonderful theoretical description of the 211953215C functionality which was manufactured by Bosch from the late 60's through possibly the 70's in the link supplied by sped372 . Can you provide a BOM for that circuit? Can you tell me where to purchase a new Bosch 211953215C you posted the schematic for? I took a quick look on E-Bay and I found the cheapest used 211953215C to be $30 and there was not an indication if it worked.

Unfortunately, I do not think the schematic and functionality you posted applies to the current readily available replacement part which I purchased for $12. Here is the link to a general description:
www.dni.com.br/manuais/0412S4.pdf

This is a photo of the DNI0412S4 "Flasher Relay"
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

This is a photo of the DNI0412S4 "Flasher Relay"
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



So, HerrMahnenschmidt the original reason I started this forum subject was because I installed the new flasher relay(DNI0412S4). After the installation was complete, the dash indicators "Green Arrows" did not work on my Type 2 yet the outside signal indicators on all corners of the Type2 were working properly. I became concerned that there was a reliability issue, possible fire hazard, and that I had purchased the wrong replacement flasher relay. Well, it turns out that the DNI0412S4 circuit is quite different from the original Bosch 211953215C. Please Refer to the photos of the DNI0412S4.

Also, here is a installation tip for a similar relay from a popular website which sells VW replacement parts. Hindsight is 20\20!!
"NOTE! If the Turn Signal Indicator Bulb does not blink when the turn signals are on, move the wire from the KBL terminal to the 49a terminal (use a piggyback or jumper connection) with the Black/White/Green wire."

Once again thanks to all who posted on this topic!!


Last edited by MarkG70 on Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please refer to above post and do not pay attention to what HerrMahnenschmidt has to say. He apparently has wiring issues with his 1977 and has not added any positive information to this post. Also, Please follow this link http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/htm/signals.htm for the information HerrMahnenschmidt forgot to include.

Last edited by MarkG70 on Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:42 pm; edited 6 times in total
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkG70 wrote:
Thank you HerrMahnenschmidt for the wonderful theoretical description of the 211953215C functionality which was manufactured by Bosch from the late 60's through possibly the 70's.


My pleasure.

MarkG70 wrote:
Can you provide a BOM for that circuit?


No.

MarkG70 wrote:
Can you tell me where to purchase a new Bosch 211953215C you posted the schematic for?


No.

MarkG70 wrote:
So, HerrMahnenschmidt the original reason I started this forum subject was because I installed the new flasher relay mentioned above in the link of this post.


A commendable reason.

Discontinuance of methamphetamine, and an occasional tryst with a willing accomplice, can cure most symptoms of unwarranted aggravation/aggression/snarkiness. Selah.

sped372 wrote:
It took quite a bit of searching but I found something referencing this function. I am pretty sure I read it someplace else also but can't seem to find it.

http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/htm/4-term.htm


etc.

I posted the content of the above link to insure it remains documented somewhere, should the indicated link go dead someday.

You are welcome. Carry on.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once Again, I would like to thank all those who supplied positive, relevant comments to this forum topic. The comments and ideas contained within this forum topic helped me, and hopefully others, troubleshoot the problem that was created when a new replacement flasher relay, which is not electronically the same as the original flasher relay, was installed.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Turn Signal Indicators(Green Arrows) not working Reply with quote

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I'll just say I'm stumped.

Problem: As in the OP's issue, when my hazards are on, green dash lights flash. Turn key to On position, green dash lights quit.

Solutions that I've tried: Jumped KBL to 49A, no success, when placing test light on KBL, nothing. Replaced flasher switch, doesn't fix it, placed test light on K1, got flash, but still nothing to the instrument lights, jumped K1 to 49a, still didn't work.

I realize that the key on, generates 12v power to the Gen, Left Turn, OP and Right Turn and I know that is why they are not flashing but I'm at a loss.

Working on a 1969 Westfalia and it seems as if I'm having to look at 2 separate wiring diagrams to come up with all my wiring solutions. 69 shows an individual 2 wire hazard switch and 10 fuses while 70 shows the hazard switch with multiple connections and 12 fuses.

I have 10 fuses and the multiple connections on my hazard switch. I'm seriously at a loss right now with what needs to be done. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry if I've left anything out.

Thanks
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Turn Signal Indicators(Green Arrows) not working Reply with quote

If you have the 7 wire hazard switch use the 70 diagram for the signals.
Does your fuel gauge and idiot lights all work normally?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Turn Signal Indicators(Green Arrows) not working Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
If you have the 7 wire hazard switch use the 70 diagram for the signals.
Does your fuel gauge and idiot lights all work normally?


Yes, and that is the one that I've been using. The following idiot lights all work: Gen, OP, Brights, Parking Lights, Dash Lights and Fuel Gauge works as well. Only thing is those damn green flashing arrows that in reality, I don't need. I just like for everything to be working.

In my mind, does the KBL act as an intermittent ground since the block where the arrows are located is hot when the key is switched to the on position?

By the way BusDaddy, you've answered my questions on many other threads. This time I'm just so stumped that I had to post. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Turn Signal Indicators(Green Arrows) not working Reply with quote

That's a complicated question.....

Some more complex flashers (mostly OG ones) cut off KBL when a bulb is out or a bulb of the wrong wattage is installed, on those it's a separate sensor circuit and the arrows are telling you something's wrong outside. On simple aftermarket flashers or those which have had 49a piggybacked the signal circuit itself provides the ground during the times when the bulbs are dark, the filaments provide a path to ground for the dash arrows, outside bulb on = arrow off, outside bulb dark = arrow lit as long as the signal switch is on. That changes when the hazards are on and the key is off since the ground path now goes through the ignition switched components like the coil, outer lights and arrows light together since Kbl is providing the + power.

Confused yet? Razz
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: Turn Signal Indicators(Green Arrows) not working Reply with quote

Well BusDaddy, you mentioned something that could possibly be the issue that I haven't tried yet. I upgraded all of the bulbs with the exception of the Gen bulb to LEDs. Maybe if I try with the original bulbs it may work.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:44 am    Post subject: Re: Turn Signal Indicators(Green Arrows) not working Reply with quote

jasoncardenas21 wrote:
Maybe if I try with the original bulbs it may work.

Idea Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:04 am    Post subject: Re: Turn Signal Indicators(Green Arrows) not working Reply with quote

I'll give it a shot tonight and I'll keep you all posted. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Turn Signal Indicators(Green Arrows) not working Reply with quote

Well BusDaddy, you did it again. Changed the LED's back to the stock bulbs, still had to move the dash wire over to 49a, but happy to inform you all that it works even with the key on.

Thanks a lot.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:55 pm    Post subject: Re: LED Turn Signal Indicators(Green Arrows) not working Reply with quote

I didn't do it, YOU did it!

So the LED's do not provide a ground path bewteen blinks it seems, you could add a small resistor or bulb to ground in each side's circuit to simulate the bulb load enough to activate the dash arrows.

There's other ways to get the arows working with LED's, but it would be more complex and require messing with the back of the speedo, depends on how deep you want to dig.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:22 pm    Post subject: Re: LED Turn Signal Indicators(Green Arrows) not working Reply with quote

That's what I did, add parallel resistors for each of the taillight turn signal LED bulbs to simulate a bulb. Dash indicator lights now Smile
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