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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16504 Location: Brookeville, MD
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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BusDriver1 wrote: |
After some thought and research, got one more question. I'm in the Air Force. My job is an Aircraft Loadmaster. I winch a lot of cargo on/off the plane. So, the friction coefficient of a vehicle rolling on pneumatic tires on a flat surface is .30 x the vehicle weight. So a 3000 van x .03 = 900 lbs of pulling force. I should have no problem towing that. What you say people? |
Not sure I understand your question. When the manufacturer gives the towing capacity of your CRV they take that into account. So how does the 900 lbs figure into things?
Can the CRV tow a 3000 lb Westy that does not have independent brakes? Is it safe to do so? Would you like to be in a panic stop condition in your CRV with a Westy pushing it forward? How about going down a steep grade? How robust are the CRV brakes? Just because the CRV *can* tow a Westy under some conditions doesn't mean it is a good idea. YMMV.
BTW, I'm not sure that 0.30 coefficient is correct or I could never push my Westy on a level surface, which I can certainly do.... _________________ Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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dhaavers Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 7756 Location: NE MN (tinyurl.com/dhaaverslocation)
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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BusDriver1 wrote: |
... the friction coefficient ... is .30 x the vehicle weight. So a 3000 van x .03 = 900 lbs of pulling force... |
.30 <does not equal> .03
Oops. _________________ 86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS> |
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BusDriver1 Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2009 Posts: 15
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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dhaavers wrote: |
BusDriver1 wrote: |
... the friction coefficient ... is .30 x the vehicle weight. So a 3000 van x .03 = 900 lbs of pulling force... |
.30 <does not equal> .03 |
Oops. Correction. Sorry.
4E-20. WINCHING ON A LEVEL SURFACE.
4E-21. When winching cargo on a level surface, the cable pull required is equal to the weight of the cargo unit times it's coefficient of friction. A vehicle rolling on pneumatic tires has a coefficient of .03 x vehicle weight. If its up an incline, there is a formula for that, which is beyond the scope of this discussion. Unless you guys really want to know that minutia. The corrected answer is 3000 x .03 is 90 lbs. This info is from my loading manual for the C-17. |
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dhaavers Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 7756 Location: NE MN (tinyurl.com/dhaaverslocation)
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Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:39 am Post subject: |
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Cargo plane specs aside, your question has already been well answered.
You have several options:
OPTION 1:
Sure; camp in the van...in your yard.
PROS: Fun, safe, cheap.
CONS: None, really, except you're stuck in your yard.
OPTION 2:
Drive the CRV; camp where you want, in a tent.
PROS: Fun, safe, cheap.
CONS: None, really, except you're not in your van.
OPTION 3:
Fix the van & drive it.
PROS: Fun, safe.
CONS: Not cheap.
OPTION 4:
Tow the 3000# van (as you suggest) with your under-rated tow vehicle.
PROS: Cheap.
CONS: NOT SAFE, WHICH IS NO FUN.
Your idea is just that - an idea. It is not good. It is not practical.
It endangers yourself and others.
I recommend anything from #1-3...Save your money & do it right.
If you pick #4, please don't come up on my bumper while I'm dodging deer or traffic.
Good luck...keep us posted! _________________ 86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS> |
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Syncromikey Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2012 Posts: 463 Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:28 am Post subject: |
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Emergency stop ... At first you'll start swerving a little side to side then it'll get worse and you'll loose control. Maybe you'll be able to stop safely, maybe you'll loose control, cross the meridian and you're life will totally change. Too many people out there figure it'll never happen to them ... Then it does.
I wouldn't take that chance with my family in the van or with others I don't know driving down the road.
Needless to say, I wouldn't recommend towing a 3000lb+ vehicle with a 3000lb vehicle. _________________ Love my Westy ...
My build: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=528954 |
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Jake de Villiers Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007 Posts: 5911 Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Syncromikey wrote: |
Emergency stop ... At first you'll start swerving a little side to side then it'll get worse and you'll loose control. Maybe you'll be able to stop safely, maybe you'll loose control, cross the meridian and you're life will totally change. Too many people out there figure it'll never happen to them ... Then it does.
I wouldn't take that chance with my family in the van or with others I don't know driving down the road.
Needless to say, I wouldn't recommend towing a 3000lb+ vehicle with a 3000lb vehicle. |
Exactly. Except that a Westy weighs ~4000 lbs. The engine is ~240 lbs and the transaxle ~100, so maybe down to 3560 lbs. Subtract maybe 50 lbs for the halfshafts and you're almost down to 3500 lbs.
Fill the fridge, add clothes, blankets, food and water and you're a disaster waiting to happen.
Pretty happy me and my family live far enough away that your ignorance won't affect us directly. _________________ '84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
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BusDriver1 Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2009 Posts: 15
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Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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Jake de Villiers wrote: |
Syncromikey wrote: |
Emergency stop ... At first you'll start swerving a little side to side then it'll get worse and you'll loose control. Maybe you'll be able to stop safely, maybe you'll loose control, cross the meridian and you're life will totally change. Too many people out there figure it'll never happen to them ... Then it does.
I wouldn't take that chance with my family in the van or with others I don't know driving down the road.
Needless to say, I wouldn't recommend towing a 3000lb+ vehicle with a 3000lb vehicle. |
Exactly. Except that a Westy weighs ~4000 lbs. The engine is ~240 lbs and the transaxle ~100, so maybe down to 3560 lbs. Subtract maybe 50 lbs for the halfshafts and you're almost down to 3500 lbs.
Fill the fridge, add clothes, blankets, food and water and you're a disaster waiting to happen.
Pretty happy me and my family live far enough away that your ignorance won't affect us directly. |
Actually Jake, I'm thinking about moving up to the Crescent Beach Area! Lol. Just kidding. I'll take your advice. That's why we have this forum. So smart people ask questions before they do dumb stuff. Thanks again. |
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Love My Westy Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007 Posts: 1838
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Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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I was towing my 14' aluminum boat on a trailer, the total of the two was about 1200 lbs. The trailer had no brakes. My tow vehicle was a Dodge Dakota which was loaded with a 4 Wheel pop top camper and all of my gear. As I was approaching an intersection about 50 mph, the light suddenly changed, and the car ahead of me, which I expected to continue through the yellow light, slammed on his brakes to stop. I thought I was following at a safe distance, but when I put on the brakes, the boat and trailer pushed me so that I had to swing into the left turn lane to keep from hitting the car in front. I did manage to stop before I went into the intersection but I was amazed that the inertia of that lightweight trailer.
Don't do it unless you are prepared to fork out the $500 to $700 for a braking system from Camper World or other RV place. And get a tow vehicle that is built to haul that weight. |
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SCP_Austin Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2009 Posts: 366 Location: Tacoma, WA
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Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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This is probably the worst idea i have heard in awhile. You will KILL the CRV transmission and brakes. You actually could physically tow the van with the CRV, but it would burn up the tranny and just eat up your brakes.
Think about the MPGs of towing a van with a CRV...holy crap that would be low. Also...you would more than likely void any warranty expressed or implied from Honda.
Good luck wrenching on the van!!! |
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BillWYellowstone Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2011 Posts: 767 Location: Yellowstone NP
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Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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I tow mine, but with a 35' motorhome, well within the specs, plus I have the 'Brake Buddy' system, works on inertia and applies the brakes to the Westy in a stop. Also remember with engine not running, there is no vacuum assist for the brakes.
Next, consider, you really can't back it up with a tow bar, the front wheels would try to turn themselves around.
It has been hacked to death here and looks like OP has decided against it, but you know how these can devolve over a short period of time. Just thought I would toss these other cons into the mix. Backing seems to have been missed. Of course, one could unhook and have the family push it bacwards while you steer. Maybe once. _________________ Live Fulltime in motorhome
Have 86 Westy Camper 2.1 rebuilt
Work in Yellowstone NP year round. |
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SCP_Austin Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2009 Posts: 366 Location: Tacoma, WA
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Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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Even with a locked steering wheel? |
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16CVs Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2004 Posts: 4025 Location: Redwood City, California
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Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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This thread reminds of the Mazda MPV stuck in the side of the hill on Donner Summit with a full sized Ford F150 on a trailer jack knifed and stopping traffic . The Mazda did not have a straight panel on it nor an inflated tire .
My guess is the guy had to change his pants after that . Don't do it, save the money you would have to spend on the Honda after cooking the drive train or repairing body damage and fix the Vanagon ,as stated by a few others other than me .
If you do do it, send us pictures and an update after .
Stacy _________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia Triple knob (bastard)
1989 Syncro Tristar Triple knob "Swedish"
2013 Jetta Hybrid a true "Zwitter"
Samba member # 14980
Call anytime number 650 722 4914 .
Keep Your van running and upkept tastefully for the love of the hobby.
Don't let your van end up in an "abortions" thread. |
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0to60in6min Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2006 Posts: 3416 Location: OR & CA (Oregon/California)
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Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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to the OP...
don't do it..
- you may kill the CRV
- you may kill the vanagon
- you may kill yourself and others.. |
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90Doka_Guy Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2007 Posts: 548 Location: South Jersey
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Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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BusDriver1 wrote: |
After some thought and research, got one more question. I'm in the Air Force. My job is an Aircraft Loadmaster. I winch a lot of cargo on/off the plane. So, the friction coefficient of a vehicle rolling on pneumatic tires on a flat surface is .03 x the vehicle weight. So a 3000 van x .03 = 90 lbs of pulling force. I should have no problem towing that. What you say people? ( correction to math made) |
This inst applicable to towing something at highway speeds. You need to think in terms of hp and winching something on an aircraft at fractions of a mile an hour at 90lbs is likely just a few hp if that. To get up to highway speeds you need to factor wind resistance and vehicle speed into the equation. 90lbs at fractions of a mile an hour isn't the same as 90lbs at highway speeds.
I am not too familiar with CRV's or their towing capacity, but they seem awfully small to be towing something as heavy as a Vanagon. My Jeep wrangler has plenty of power to tow thousands of pounds but its towing capacity is about the same as a Vanagon. The Jeep would be very unstable and dangerous at highway speeds with more than a couple thousand pounds because of its short wheelbase. The towing capacity of the CRV may not be power limited but handling limited.
If an accident were to happen would your insurance company still cover you if they found out you had grossly exceeded the towing capacity of the CRV and were liable? Something to think about. _________________ -'87 Westy
-'90 Tintop
-'90 DOKA |
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snowsyncro Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2009 Posts: 1557 Location: East Preston, Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:38 am Post subject: |
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16CV's wrote: |
This thread reminds of the Mazda MPV stuck in the side of the hill on Donner Summit with a full sized Ford F150 on a trailer jack knifed and stopping traffic . The Mazda did not have a straight panel on it nor an inflated tire . |
Reminds me of this...
Link
RonC |
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BillWYellowstone Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2011 Posts: 767 Location: Yellowstone NP
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:30 am Post subject: |
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ute wrote: |
Even with a locked steering wheel? |
Well you certainly shouldn't tow forward with the steering locked, you need to have it unlocked. Now if you were to lock the wheel straight and back up there would be side pressure on the front wheels as you attempt. Not sure how well it would work.. The tongue would be pushing sideways and cause a scrub I think.
All in all, not a good idea.
When I tow mine, if I get into a situation where I HAVE to backup, (1 time in thousands of towing miles), I stop, unhook, back the westy, abck and correct the motorhome, then reconnect. Actually twice, both in CG's, one time I was just past the turn point and wife yelled turn, I as a fool, turned, not enoough room, so disconnected, corrected, then went back. Other time a CG that we found to be closed, plus construction going on, and the U-turn had decreased to the point I had to disconnect to make turn.
I would not attempt to back it, plus the hitch we use is not rated for backing. _________________ Live Fulltime in motorhome
Have 86 Westy Camper 2.1 rebuilt
Work in Yellowstone NP year round. |
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