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James 93SLC
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2009
Posts: 937
Location: NE Ohio
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 Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:14 am Post subject: Failed Plastic Coolant Pipes |
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Just finished up replacing my old plastic lines with Bus Depot's stainless ones last weekend. I had developed a pretty large leak at one of the front hose junctions.
Figured I would post up some good pictures of the old lines, as they are a good example of what happens to the ends and the metal inserts.
I'm happy with the Bus Depot stainless lines. Pain in the butt running them over the tank (I did drop the tank down a few inches) but otherwise a straight forward install.
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91 Vanagon Carat
93 Corrado SLC
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Photos: http://picasaweb.google.com/slc.corrado
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tencentlife "Sometimes a pooka is a problem and sometimes it's just a pooka" |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32598
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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You know, I've tossed around this whole pipe issue. I've read and searched the pros and cons.
What I've found is that there is frequent failure with the metal inserts coming out at the ends but I've yet to find any reports of cracks or rupturing of the pipe between the two ends.
It seems the pipes crack at the thin point by the end bulge. This allows the sleeve to migrate out ..........
somehow pulling the clamped hose along with it!
This is the part I've yet to fully grasp, if the hose is clamped to the plastic pipe over the metal sleeve, how does the little 1/2" length that separated at the end pull the clamped hose off of the pipe?
Is there tension on the hose, a pulling action I Wonder?
My pipes are in quite good shape. A set of pipes is $300, money that could be used elsewhere.
I'm thinking of using my pipes, double clamping them onto the plastic pipe and marking where the hose end is. I'll check yearly for hose migration away from the markI made and take needed action if I notice a change.
I've contemplated drilling and pinning the insert to the plastic...... But if it ain't broke, don't go fixing it!
Maybe a few years down the road I'll spring for Stainless Pipes?
Here are two of my ends back by the engine........ The one shows a rust line at the thin spot at the bulge, this concerns me.........
Dave
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desertrefugee
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Joined: January 22, 2013
Posts: 476
Location: Phoenix, AZ. USA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, and what a rip-off that the danged things are only lasting 20-25 years.
And, and, and I guess they're one of the "improvements" in the cooling system over the earlier WBX'ers...
(ducking and running)
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dhaavers
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Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 7756
Location: NE MN (tinyurl.com/dhaaverslocation)
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| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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I'm like you, Dave...
I'm under the van a lot & I've been keeping track of my plastic pipes.
Mine are like yours - not like new, but no obvious or impending problems.
If/when I see trouble brewing it'll move to the top of the list.
I can't afford to fix everything at once, but I'm working my way down the list...
 
- Dave
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"The WonderVan"
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Luckyphil
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Joined: March 07, 2011
Posts: 156
Location: Australia
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32598
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Phishman068
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Joined: February 19, 2007
Posts: 1867
Location: Pittsburgh PA (ish)
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SCM
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Joined: January 26, 2011
Posts: 3115
Location: Bozeman MT
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| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Phishman068 wrote: |
Just so you know,
the Gowesty "FIX" really works. I've installed it on a few vans and been very impressed.
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Had the ends come out of the pipes prior to installation of the fix? What I remember from the other "does it work" thread is that no one had repaired previously failed pipes with the kit.
I'm not knocking it, I have it installed on my own van. But I do mentally wrestle with the physics of it all.
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'91 Westfalia GL Automatic (GTA "Turbo" Rebuild w/Peloquin) and 2.3L GoWesty Engine |
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?Waldo?
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Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| As many of you know, I am staunchly in the 'GoWesty kit does absolutely nothing except remove money from your wallet' group. Just because you installed the GoWesty inserts after tapping the inserts back into place and the hoses haven't popped off yet has nothing at all to do with the inserts being present... Save your $50 and either tap the inserts back into place every so often or do something like replace with stainless pipes, RMW aluminum pipes, etc... |
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juanb
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Joined: December 03, 2009
Posts: 535
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| djkeev wrote: |
You know, I've tossed around this whole pipe issue. I've read and searched the pros and cons.
Is there tension on the hose, a pulling action I Wonder?
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In my case (I just dealt with this, as you guys probably know) it was exactly this.
From the way it failed, what it seems like is that the hose/pipe is at a slight tension. Over time, the clamp slides out, taking the plastic barb and pipe with it. Once the clamp is out of the pipe, it is not tight anymore, and the whole thing fails.
In my case, the solution was an extra metal fitting + an extra piece of hose. Now I have plenty of overlap between hose and plastic pipe, several clamps, and no tension, so the worst that can happen is a loose clamp that allows a leak, but not a catastrophic failure like the one I had. Total cost was about $10-$15.
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John Sullivan
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Joined: July 04, 2006
Posts: 170
Location: Lansdale, PA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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I am an advocate of the GoWesty fix. I have had it on my Westy since 2008. I had a bad plastic pipe where the end came out. I cut it back used a heat gun and reinstalled. Added the Go Westy fix to all fittings and have not had a problem since. If you think about the physics, the hose clamp on the original is squeezing the pipe and metal inserts. With the heating and cooling, expansion and contraction it eventually squeezes the fitting the only direction it can go, toward the hose, off the pipe. Like squeezing tooth paste, eventually it gets far enough forward where it can be squeezed out by the clamp. The Go Westy fix has a hose clamp on a brass fitting inside the rubber hose pushing against the original hose clamp on the metal fitting inside the plastic pipe. They can only be squeezed against each other due to the flanges are toward each other. It is quite ingenious for such a simple approach. Opposing forces keeping all in place.
I did an Bostig install in 2010 and ordered one of the straight brass fittings so I could keep this fix with the Bostig. It replaced the 45 degree brass fitting. |
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Phishman068
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Joined: February 19, 2007
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Location: Pittsburgh PA (ish)
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westyjay
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Joined: March 25, 2008
Posts: 14
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:00 am Post subject: |
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I'm with John Sullivan: it's the physics! After reading all the (long) threads on this topic, I wasn't a believer in the GoWesty fix until I laid under my van, coolant dripping on my face, staring at the 3 failed hose ends. When the coolant is hot, the plastic pipes are going to expand and get longer. On the front of my van, the rubber radiator hoses were wedged against the spare tire. At the back, one end has nowhere to go against the coolant tower, while the return end was free to move around with the S-bend in the rubber hose over the transmission up to the thermostat (this was the only end still ok). On 3 failed ends, the only place for the lengthening plastic pipes to go is to push into the rubber hose. As the coolant cools, the pipe contracts/shorten and pulls back out again. This repeated in-and-out action breaks the barb off the pipe and works the insert loose. The GoWesty inserts clamp to the hose and prevent the pipe from pushing in and presto, no more in-out action! So there you go, another theory into the mix.
Jay |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32598
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| westyjay wrote: |
I'm with John Sullivan: it's the physics! After reading all the (long) threads on this topic, I wasn't a believer in the GoWesty fix until I laid under my van, coolant dripping on my face, staring at the 3 failed hose ends. When the coolant is hot, the plastic pipes are going to expand and get longer. On the front of my van, the rubber radiator hoses were wedged against the spare tire. At the back, one end has nowhere to go against the coolant tower, while the return end was free to move around with the S-bend in the rubber hose over the transmission up to the thermostat (this was the only end still ok). On 3 failed ends, the only place for the lengthening plastic pipes to go is to push into the rubber hose. As the coolant cools, the pipe contracts/shorten and pulls back out again. This repeated in-and-out action breaks the barb off the pipe and works the insert loose. The GoWesty inserts clamp to the hose and prevent the pipe from pushing in and presto, no more in-out action! So there you go, another theory into the mix.
Jay |
You know, this is the first explanation of this phenomenon that actually makes sense to me!
I wonder though, once you prevent the plastic pipe from being able to reject the steel liner.... Where is this inevitable plastic expansion / lengthening going to take place? I imagine simply coolant hose flex?
Over time, Is there going to be a different failure we've yet to discover?
If your theory is correct......then GoWesty's fix will indeed work.
I'm beginning to wonder with the many posts in many different forums saying that the GoWesty system works......
Besides the $50 out of pocket......
what's the harm?
$50 "wasted" is far far cheaper than an engine and a ruined vacation with all the resulting break down away from home expenses!
Heck! $50 is barely a decent meal out at a quality restaurant! I just dropped $120 the other night here in town! Yum! Excellent food!
Dave
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
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?Waldo?
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Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
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| Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| The only hose end that I have seen fail completely (insert actually pull all the way out) was the one on an automatic van where the hose that goes over the plastic pipe immediately necks down in diameter and makes a prompt 90 degree turn. It is physically impossible for the insert to move into that hose at all and yet it pulled out completely from the plastic pipe. |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32598
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| Andrew A. Libby wrote: |
| The only hose end that I have seen fail completely (insert actually pull all the way out) was the one on an automatic van where the hose that goes over the plastic pipe immediately necks down in diameter and makes a prompt 90 degree turn. It is physically impossible for the insert to move into that hose at all and yet it pulled out completely from the plastic pipe. |
I've read most of your posts on this topic. I'm not firmly in either camp right now. You may have posted thus before, if so my apologies..... I missed that one!
In simple easy to grasp "idiot" terms......
WHY and HOW do these inserts migrate out?
Additionally......
Why do the plastic barb ends break off?
Does the hose come off following the insert migration?
If so, how does one prevent the migration? Wire tie the clamp as you would on a carburetor pressed in fuel inlet pipe?
Dave
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Ghia
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
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crazyvwvanman
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Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 9923
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:25 am Post subject: |
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The metal insert sleeves migrate out. The hose does not pull them out. The hose does not touch them. Usually the insert breaks off the plastic barb as it forces its way out but not always.
Mark |
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?Waldo?
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| Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| Mark, that's interesting. Are you saying that you have seen coolant pipes with the plastic barb intact and yet the metal insert migrated out beyond it? |
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insyncro
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Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:31 am Post subject: |
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I am very happy with the 22 sets of stainless steel or aluminum coolant pipes I have installed for myself and others.
Not a single failure.
FYI, the GW kit I installed for someone lasted 8 months.
I than replaced all the plastic with stainless. |
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?Waldo?
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Joined: February 22, 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
FYI, the GW kit I installed for someone lasted 8 months.
I than replaced all the plastic with stainless. |
Did the connection fail after the GW kit was installed or did you replace with stainless pipes preemptively? |
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