Battery Set Up Opinion

[18Vanagonfan]

I figured i would run this by you guys before i pull the trigger on anything. I searched multiple links and just wanted to make sure this makes sense and im not missing anything

If there is an exact link that i missed please point me in that direction.

I have a 82 Westy with a 2.1 from GEX.

Currently

-stock radio (Would like to add flip face DVD player, and moderet speakers)

-No extra lights

-No additional heater system

-Broken stock fridge(Dont know whats wrong; but would like to upgrade to TF49)

-Week long camping, with the ability to start and drive to charge batteries

My desired setup is about my set up:

-Im going to leave my stock battery in stock location for simplicity sake.
-I would like to have my AUX battery under the rear set to allow easier access, ease of putting supporting equipment in the area, more battery size options.
-AUX Battery will be a blue top Optima(buddy willing to sell me his he bought 3 months ago)
-Im not looking to drop a boat load of money but not looking to have to replace everything in 6 months.

Questions:
-Any huge reason to not mount under rear seat?
-What AUX kit would you recommend?
-GW for $70 http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=3567&category_id=4295&category_parent_id=
-TheBusDepot for $30 http://www.busdepot.com/1738
-Build my own for ???? (suggestions on what would i need)
-Is it possible to find a decent inverter/converter for around $100?
-Anyother items i "need"?

Lastley:
I would like the ability to hook up the TF49 and a solar system in the future so i would like to buy items that will work with my future add-ons

Thanks to all in advance

Gabe

[MarkWard]

Gabe, I am in the process of installing a battery under my rear seat. I had a smaller setup under my drivers seat, but gave up on that idea. I can have a larger Group 31 battery there with more reserver capcity. I use a Yandina combiner to keep both batteries charged when going down the road. It is automatic and has almost no voltage drop across it. Good for charging. I am not familiar with the GoWesty kit, but it is probably just a relay. You could accomplish the same thing with a heavy duty continuous duty relay. Something like this. http://www.amazon.com/CONTINUOUS-SOLENOID-RELAY-CA...37-7573663 They look like Ford starter solenoids, but are suited for continuous load unlike a starter relay.

edit. If you don't need a ton of 110 power, you can probably get a decent invertor in your price range. I recommend looking for a "true sine wave" unit. I would avoid the Xantrex 1000. It is a modified sine wave and my died just out of warranty. It was overkill anyhow for the small things I might need 110 power for.
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☮️

[thatvwbusguy]

Since you are looking to add solar at a later date, you do not want to use a solenoid based system like the GW unit that uses the alternator to control the coil that allows charging current to the auxiliary battery only when the van is running.

I would definitely recommend using a Voltage Sensing ACR (automatic charging relay) like the Blue Sea Systems 7610 ACR or the Yandina Combiner 100. Both of these are Bi-Directional voltage sensing relays.
http://www.bluesea.com/products/7610
http://www.yandina.com/c100InfoR3.htm

If you want to ensure that you will never pull amperage from your auxiliary battery back through to the starting battery, you could also use the SurePower 1314, which is a uni-directional voltage sensing relay.
http://www.allbatterysalesandservice.com/graphics/INSTRUCTION_1314.pdf
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Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[18Vanagonfan]

Thanks for the ideas and i decided to build my own based on your input and thier product description

I learn better by seeing, so based on my photo does the wiring look correct?

Is a charger needed, since the alternator is hooked up?

Should i still ground the AUX Bat even though its running through the Inverter?

Is an Inverter really needed, or is it just a nice to have and can go in later?

WHat amp fuse should i use "in line fuse"?

What gauge wire should i be using running between all components?

Thanks all

[shadetreetim]

I thought I would use my inverter more often. Instead I've switched to 12v products, even my laptop charger.
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Tim Potts

Doing my best every time I drive it to dispel the myth these Vanagons have to be slow!


'89 Vanagon Bluestar/Country Homes 1.8T & .77 4th
'74 Jeep CJ5

[thatvwbusguy]

Your design is actually more complicated than it needs to be. If your stock fridge is dead and you don't plan to repair it, there is no real need to keep the stock relay under the drivers seat. You definitely don't want to feed the Yandina through the stock relay, as it will significantly limit the current available to your auxiliary battery.

Instead, install the Yandina under the rear seat close to the auxiliary battery and connect the 12V+ red wire to the post on the starter. This will result in a short run of wire and can be connected with a simple 5/16" ring connector on the starter post. You probably won't even have to add any wire to the Yandina wiring harness. A single 3/8" hole drilled through the body of the van under the rear seat with a rubber grommet installed is all that is needed to wire the auxiliary battery this way.

There is not an absolute need for an inline fuse between the Yandina and the auxiliary battery as long as the wire is well protected, but a 40A fuse or circuit breaker should do the trick if you would like to add one for extra peace of mind. Place the inline fuse / breaker as close to the positive post of the auxiliary battery as possible for best protection. You can always upsize the amperage of the circuit protection if you find you need to later.

You can ground the Yandina and the negative post of the auxiliary battery to one of the rear seat belt bolts using 1/2" ring connectors and a star washer. The remaining red wire on the Yandina will go to the positive post on the auxiliary battery.

The solar panel should also be connected directly to the auxiliary battery via the charge controller to supply maximum charging to the auxiliary (the only battery that will be depleted while camping). The wire gauge for the solar install will be determined by the output of the panel and the length of the wire run. 10AWG wire should be fine for anything up to 150W / 25 feet.

You can also connect your 120V (shore power) charger directly to the auxiliary battery if you decide to add one. The Yandina will send charging current out to the starting battery when the auxiliary reaches the combine voltage threshold (13.3V).

An interesting option for people who sometimes camp where power is available is the Iota line of smart charger/power supplies http://www.iotaengineering.com/dls45.htm. The Iota will allow you to charge your batteries when 120V power is available or run a modern 12V fridge directly from the power supply without using the auxiliary battery at all.

There are generally two types of inverters. There are the cheap inefficient type that waste tons of power, or the expensive type that you probably won't use enough to justify the cost. Most of the accessories you will want to run from the auxiliary battery (chargers for laptop, iPod, small fans, lighting etc.) can all be done much more efficiently with DC chargers.

Figure out what you will be depending on the auxiliary battery to supply power to on a regular basis and then decide if the investment in a decent inverter is worthwhile.
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Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[mightyart]

[18Vanagonfan]

TP - thanks for the heads up ill put it on the back burner for now.

Mightyart - It is an air cooled 2110CC. No Woods camping, but i did spend 5 nights in it when i drove it 1500 miles after i bought it in Chicago and drove to Savannah.

The endstate is long camping with ability to charge batteries when driving every few days

Jay - Thanks for helping clearify. I readjusted and still had a couple of questions

1. I think the best way to go would be to have an Aux panel which i would run my 12v, stereo, sink, future fridge through. Ive read that a bunch have used blue sea, what should i be looking for when selecting the model for me?

2. Is there a need to run the starting battery both directly to the yandina and also run it through the starter-alternator-exsiting stock relay-to the yandina.

3. After i put everything onto the blue sea panel is there a purpose to the exsiting stock relay?

Thanks again to all who want to add comments or sharp shoot my power point skills

[dobryan]

Please clarify the positive lead from your starting battery. It appears to go to ground where it connects to the Yandina? And you do not need the relay with the Yandina, ditch the relay...and the blue wire connection as well. The Yandina connects between the aux and starting battery with no interaction to the blue wire or alternator.
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Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794

[18Vanagonfan]

[thatvwbusguy]

The stock relay under the drivers seat sends power to the water pump and LED display via the paired #87 terminals and to the stock fridge via terminal #30. Both of these wires then go from the relay to the small black 2-circuit fuse block on the B pillar behind the drivers door. The blue wire only triggers the relay to send power to the fridge when the engine is running.

I would get rid of the relay altogether and then trace the wires for the water pump and LED from the black 2-circuit fuse box and connect them directly to the new auxiliary fuse block that you plan to attach to the auxiliary battery. Put each accessory on it's own fuse to help with troubleshooting if they ever fail later on.

I really like the Blue Seas 5029 12-Circuit Fuse Block: http://www.bluesea.com/products/5029/ST_Blade_Fuse_Block_-_12_Circuits_with_Cover , but any automotive style fuse panel that will handle the total amperage you need for your project will work. Another option would be to go with two 6-circuit fuse blocks instead of one 12-circuit block if it will work better with your final design.

Since the entire chassis of the van is a common ground, there is no need for a fuse block with a ground bus. I highly recommend the "glows when it blows" LED fuses to make finding fuse problems as simple as possible.

The post on the starter is fed via a heavy(ish) gauge wire from the alternator in the engine bay and then connects directly to the starting battery via the positive battery cable. Simply connecting the input wire on the Yandina to the starter post is all you need to do to supply the 12v+ power to the auxiliary battery.

I would skip the inverter altogether and use the cash you save on such a minimally useful item to purchase more solar capacity or an extra auxiliary battery. I have a 400W inverter that I have only used twice in the four years I have owned it. Both times it was used to charge an ancient (pre -USB) cell phone that my friend Mike refused to part ways with until he dropped it into a porta-potty at a music festival this past summer...
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Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[18Vanagonfan]

OK think im good. Sorry I made this as bad as pulling teeth.

I plan on ordering through amazon the following items,since they had the best deals:

Blue Sea 5029
12V Outlet X2

Some marine wire through ebay(i forget the seller)

Yandina 100 through whoever has it cheaper

Blue top Battery from buddy

Hopefully this is the last time. Thanks again for all your guys input.

[thatvwbusguy]

That looks good. Should be a simple, clean install.
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Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[PDXWesty]

I got my wiring supplies here: http://gregsmarinewiresupply.com/Zen/

I used the wire, lugs, terminal, and heat shrink. All very top quality products and fast shipping.
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89 Westy 2.1 Auto

[Dampcamper]

Hey, it's looking good. Throwing in my 2 bits worth, I would recommend using a fuse block with a negative common bus - what with all the wood and formica in your cabinetry it can sometimes be hard to find a good grounding point for your circuit. I mounted mine under the sink and picked up a ground under the seat - drilled a largish hole in cabinet front and seat-base back to run various cables through. Scrape teh paint away under the big lug. Use a cabinet-makers PVC bushing in the hole so no sharp edges. The Blue Seas 5026 is the same as the 5029 you show but with that common negative bus. I used marine-grade duplex wire for everything (left over from my boat projects, mostly scrap pieces). Remember there are a lot of ways to do this, yours does look well thought-out.

[thatvwbusguy]

There are definitely lots of different wiring strategies that can be successfully utilized in automotive electronics.

While the use of a fuse block with a built in negative bus is not typically detrimental in an automotive application, it can sometimes lead to a lower quality ground if the negative bus is not perfectly grounded via a properly sized cable to the chassis (this is due to the fact that the total return current load from all devices will be going back to the chassis through a single cable).

My other concerns when using a fuse block with a negative bus would be the fact that it takes twice as much wire to connect the devices and leaves you with twice as many wires to hide if you are trying to do an "invisible" installation.

Whenever possible, I try to find a nearby pre-existing connection point (like a seat belt bolt or a threaded mounting tab that has been welded to the body) for my grounds. Next, I scrape away any paint down to clean bare metal and use a toothed washer to improve the "bite" of the ground terminals. After everything is tightened down, I apply a thin layer of dielectric grease to help reduce oxidation.

The factory chose to use a simple sheet metal screw through the body of the van to connect the multi-terminal ground trees above the fuse block. It is certainly not going to be difficult for even a fledgling auto electrician to do a better job of making strong, long lasting grounds than VW did. Whatever you decide to use for a fuse block, as long as you have clean, tight connections for your grounds you should be good to go.
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[SSWesty]

Depending on your climate the stock frig may serve your needs just fine. I live in Seattle and the stock frig works for me. On bigger trips I tend to re-supply once a week with propane, water and food. The frig running on propane off the stock tank should last about two weeks running 24x7 however I have a propex heater and cook meals in my westy so I refill at 7 days.

In temps above 80 the frig doesn't cool as well so I change to food that needs less refrigeration. For days over 90 it is pretty well outside of it's ability to cool food so then I just use it for storing fruit like apples, oranges, etc. So when it's hot out I have to give up on having a yogurt for breakfast and have to switch to something like an orange or banana. Canned salmon instead of a salmon patty, etc.

I do have to make some trade-offs by staying with the stock frig but I also eliminate hauling extra batteries and a solar panel.

[18Vanagonfan]

PDXwesty- Thanks for the recommendation on dealer

SSwesty - As of now the fridge is completely dead. i may take it out and try cleaning it out and seeing if that fixes it. But its also cooler time of year and an iced cooler works out for now. However, i do still think for simplicity sake a big TF49 sure would be nice and give it a coooool factor

As for wiring, i have read that the yandina will recommend the gauge wire to use, and the gauge wire to use for the starting battery is already present. Correct? If not recommendation?

As for the AUX battery, what wire gauge would you guys recommend for the AUX bat to the blue sea 5029?

I plan to use the same gauge recommended from the Yandina to the in-line fuse; on the AUX to in-line fuse. Any issues?

I plan to use whatever is recommended or already present for all AUX items out of Blue sea

TIA

Gabe

[Jamos]

I love to see these threads...
always interesting to see different opinions about how to set things up, and it seems like each time this topic comes up the responses get a little more refined.
Like folks learn from other folks over the years.

Anyway, I'm curious about this statement:

[nocreditnodebt]

Danfoss, the manufacturer of the compressor for the TF-49 fridge, recommends that the fridge be wired right to the battery, fused as close to the (+)battery terminal as possible, rather than using a shared power source like a positive buss or fuse block.

This is not only to minimize voltage drop, but to prevent other devices sending power surges back to the controller and damaging it.

Replacement controllers cost half the price of the TF-49. Why take chances?

http://www.ra.danfoss.com/TechnicalInfo/Literature...00g402.pdf