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Broken Bolts / Studs..... What's the SECRET?
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:15 am    Post subject: Broken Bolts / Studs..... What's the SECRET? Reply with quote

I'm no "Johnny come Lately" to broken hardware removal. My Dad was a Machinist and taught me many tricks as a young man and over the multiple decades since then I've successfully removed more than my fair share of broken / stuck fasteners!

Then I came upon this 2.1 WBX and broken / stuck exhaust bolts / Studs.

I've tried my bag of tricks on the previous head and while successful it wasn't without an undo quantity of stress!

What I do ......
Clean up the joint between the steel stud and the Aluminum
Soak in ATF/ACETONE solution.
Bang / Tap literally hundreds of times on the end of the stud
Heat up the stud until red hot and let it cool down naturally
Stud remover tool
Double Nut
Vise grips
Weld Nut onto Stud, stud breaks off farther down!
Drill small hole and inject rust busting agent
Drill larger hole
Tap 100's of times again
Try easy out of various types
Drill bigger hole
Implode fastener
Retap as needed or drill to 10mm for Step Stud.

What am I not doing properly? The above steps took almost a week for all four on the other head!

Before I embark upon these two...... I'd like a new / better game plan!

Anyone? Anyone??

Brick wall

These are broken Bolts.... I do NOT understand VW's logic of using bolts here!!...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The Factory called for Bolts! Notice Item #11......
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It's a day of family social obligations..... Soaking in ATF / ACETONE for the day.....
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is the Factory Issue Exhaust Nut that I took off of the Studs on the other side. The nut had decayed down to a mere shapeless stub.
I used my Dremel with a fiber metal cutting disc and cut the side of the nut down to the threads and then used a small chisel to unscrew it after heating it up.

You can see the construction of the Factory Nut, it's got a coil of unknown metal inside the nut to prevent seizing onto the stud.....
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Dave
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Last edited by djkeev on Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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borninabus
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "logic" of this design feature is so that you can actually remove the exhaust manifold/sled tins.
Without the bolts the whole thing would be stuck on the studs.

A new one on me is a machinist's end mill bit.
That, a drill press & some LH drill bits would have those studs out in a matter of minutes.
I have fixed a few head studs this way and been able to save the OG threads.

EDM is pretty fancy too if you can find one near you.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone put Grade 8 bolts in place of the Grade 12 studs....not advised.

Hence your issues after all of those heat cycles.

A collet type stud puller (not the cheesy wedge style), mine is a Snap On, will remove those in less than a minute.
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot to put left hand drill bits on my list of "tricks".
They most often work but not on these exhaust studs.

That Snap On Stud remover sounds great but my problem isn't one of securely grasping, it's a problem of not being able to rotate. The threads are fused solid to the Aluminum. I've done many Air Cooled studs but never were they as fused as these on the WBX are.

End mill? I don't have the machine to adequately hold the head and use such a cutter.

EDM...... Not really yet developed for hobby home use yet.

If you look at the parts drawing.... VW installed bolts as original equipment. They weren't added later.

Dave
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syncrodoka
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
If you look at the parts drawing.... VW installed bolts as original equipment. They weren't added later.

Look at the exploded view of the head, it shows studs.
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

syncrodoka wrote:
djkeev wrote:
If you look at the parts drawing.... VW installed bolts as original equipment. They weren't added later.

Look at the exploded view of the head, it shows studs.


That's true but only on one end, the other end uses bolts. This is clearly shown in the exhaust diagram I posted. One end has bolts, one end has Nuts.
#1 has Bolts
#2 has Nuts
#3 has Nuts
#4 has Bolts

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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I beg to differ.
The collet stud remover I own has a 100% success rate at my shop.
It uses specific collets to each size and pitch.
It has turned out broken off nubs most wouldnt even try to remove and drill out.

I will post pictures of it in use.
Unfortunately, it is an old logo tool and NLA.
Works like a champ Exclamation
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

insyncro wrote:
I beg to differ.
The collet stud remover I own has a 100% success rate at my shop.
It uses specific collets to each size and pitch.
It has turned out broken off nubs most wouldnt even try to remove and drill out.

I will post pictures of it in use.
Unfortunately, it is an old logo tool and NLA.
Works like a champ Exclamation


If this Snap On Collet remover IS the "secret" I'm getting me one!
It's probably one of those tools that I SHOULD HAVE purchased in 1970!

Dave
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has not failed me in years.

Comb eBay for them...make sure they are metric and the threads are not buggered.

The full set still goes for $400+.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has not failed me in years.

Comb eBay for them...make sure they are metric and the threads are not buggered.

The full set still goes for $400+.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have the studs clean so just weld the nuts on with a nice rosette. Get the torch- red the stud and nut thoroughly as you want the heat traveling throughout the steel. Cool with the penetrating oil of your choice. After cooling go back in and heat the exterior of your casting. The stud will release.

You have to weld/harden/shrink all in one shot to make the process work. If the nut breaks off it's because there were dissimilar hardened materials in the New bolt you made. I have successfully removed bolts broken off under surface with this method.

Like the thermal shock method best. I have a set of inductive coils that can loosen most anything but still have to go back to the old ways sometimes.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this?

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&t...ir=catalog
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have a mile of stud to be welding the nut onto

Mig weld the nut onto those studs, count to 10.
1,2,3,4,5,6 7,8,9 10, and run it outa there.

I've removed snapped flush off studs at the head on 80 year old cast iron heads by welding & using the heat of the weld to my benefit.
The aluminum will break loose from the stud with some heat a lot faster than scanky old cast iron.
And the Voo-Doo Pixe dust penetrating oil your blowing on there hoping it'll magically break them studs loose ain't gonna happen.

If you have an oxy-acetylene torch--warm the the head up surrounding that stud--they'll back out.
No, not a propane torch-- it won't get it done.

This subject has been covered a gazillion time here--get into the archives--you'll find the right answer.

HEAT.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

REAL heat.
Wax.

Tap Tap Tap.

Bolt comes out.
Celebrate with a beer.

Bolt snaps off.
Beer.

HEAT. WAX. TAP TAP TAP. Beer.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm patient, I've got the entire Winter! Shocked

Just purchased this on eBay...... I LOVE tools and any excuse to get a new tool toy ....... Smile Especially one that has the potential to solve a life long headache!

It's the GC500 series for which Snap On still lists collets. I'll order the 8 x 1.25 size now.
I'm still a little leery and I'll send insyncro a bill if it fails! Wink

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Yeah, I've got the Mig and the OXY/Acetylene Torch, generating heat is not a problem.
I did also try the candle wax trick as well.
I think I may be a wee bit shy on how much heat on that Stud Boss area, I don't want to stress the area.
I've done many Air Cooled heads, my first was back in the 60's helping my Dad working on a 50's Bug. These heads are tighter than any I've encountered.....or, I'm getting Old and Feeble!

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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, thats it.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have all those snap on collets sometimes they work most times they do not. The fastest way is to try your bags of tricks snap off the stud then drill it out and put in time-serts. I have to do them as fast as I can on other peoples vans because at some point it pays too just buy a new head. How many hours do you have in this one job so far?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
End mill? I don't have the machine to adequately hold the head and use such a cutter.
A small end mill is basically a drill bit. It fits in a drill.
Extremely hard & sharp. Drills through hardware like none other Wink


EDM...... Not really yet developed for hobby home use yet.
Indeed.
There is an aerospace machine shop near me that has helped me out a few times.

If you look at the parts drawing.... VW installed bolts as original equipment. They weren't added later.
I agree.

The stud removal tool is pretty nice, but will break a stud just as easily as any other method.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alaric.H wrote:
I have all those snap on collets sometimes they work most times they do not. The fastest way is to try your bags of tricks snap off the stud then drill it out and put in time-serts. I have to do them as fast as I can on other peoples vans because at some point it pays too just buy a new head. How many hours do you have in this one job so far?


It's all leisure time, an evening hobby.
It's not billable hours.
The joy is in saving a dollar ........ even if I spend 50 cents to save that dollar. I find the journey of the repair as pleasurable. Having a nice running vehicle at the end? Well that's just a bonus!
Sure, if I was squeezed for time I'd spring the $1000 for a set of heads.... But I'm not squeezed for time, nor do I want to lay out the coin.

Dave
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


Link


Save yourself the thrill of failure, the joy of buying new tools that you won't need.

You have what you'll require, it'll take 5 minutes, and extract the stud without fail.
Listen to what this guy has to say about trying other techniques, and see what he found out after hacking away, and failing with insane peliminary attempts.

Bada Boom, Bada bing, short, fast, clean extraction.
And the funny thing is it works very well, even better than the Snap-On, Mac, or any other extraction tool that you can buy, borrow, or steal.

All's ya have to know is how to get the right amount of heat & wire outa the end of that goose neck on the end of the feed hose of the mig welder, into the nut & the end of the stud--complete penetration.
Then count to ten, and remove it.
Done.
Each stud should take you no more than 5 minutes--maybe less seeing you have almost 3 ft. of stud sticking out beyond the head--piece of cake.
It sure isn't a winter project by no means.
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