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Astra VW GT 2+2 - Starting Restoration, Have Questions
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redfarmer84
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure that does sound funny, but I do realize they are small and low to the ground. I have owned a 1991 Camaro and a 2002 Trans Am WS6 previously and loved those cars and thought getting in and out of them was easy and I always had plenty of room (6 foot here). This one......not the case. I have definitely thought about replacing the large steering wheel with a smaller one although I love the look of the original one. Once I managed to squeeze in the car (wish I had a pic); My legs were bent at the knee about 3-4 inches from parallel, thus causing the steering wheel to NOT be able to be turned. Also, I had to pull myself up on the wheel to reach for the shifter. My head was also scraping the roof. Maybe the seats were not all the way back, but they slid fairly easily. I don't necessarily want a backseat in the car (storage only) , so placing them far back is an option. The idea of Dropping the Floorpan is intriguing me!!! What about the shifter and E-Brake relocation?
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jspbtown
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a visual on what the shifter/ebrake relocation looks like:

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And this is what it looks like finished in an Avenger:

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SBD
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

redfarmer84 wrote:
(6 foot here).... .The idea of Dropping the Floorpan is intriguing me!!!

If you're that tall I would look at dropping the floorpan as much as possible without making it look weird. On my Kelmark the outside of the body hangs below the level of the floor of the car so a dropped floor of 2 or 3 inches can be done without it even showing from the side of the car. Here's a link to a website that's related to Sterling kits.

http://www.sterlingsportscars.com/

They used to have pre-made dropped floorpans for sale but I think they were a bit expensive, something like $400 plus. I see that they now offer a set of downloadable plans to make your own with a 4" to 5" drop for $9.95. Look in the Parts And Accessories section. If you want to go that route it's your choice but you could probably fab up a pattern out of stiff cardboard. Have a sheet metal shop fab them up for you & even have them install them if necessary. One pattern should work for both sides, just flip it over & fold it the opposite way. This way you could also make them fit exactly as you wanted.
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BIGMIKEY
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take the drivers seat out and sit directly on the floor. Got headroom now? That test will give you some indication of the seat height you are going to need. The stock seat rails are still in the car. That indicates to me that the seats were 2 or 3 inches too high right away. At least for a tall person. If you are more than 5'7" tall you are going to need to take some measures to ensure you can fit in it.
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redfarmer84
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BIGMIKEY wrote:
Take the drivers seat out and sit directly on the floor. Got headroom now? That test will give you some indication of the seat height you are going to need. The stock seat rails are still in the car. That indicates to me that the seats were 2 or 3 inches too high right away. At least for a tall person. If you are more than 5'7" tall you are going to need to take some measures to ensure you can fit in it.


I will have to try that. Thanks for the suggestion of trying it without the seat in. I'm not going to be around it until 2 weekends from now becuase I will be out of town this coming weekend. Are there any tips or tricks on how to take the measurments? Thinking about it, it seems like it will be hard to figure out good dimensions that I would need and how to measure them "blindly". Surely some of you guys have done this before.

Thanks for the help so far!
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jspbtown
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Surely some of you guys have done this before.


I think you would be surprised to realize the relatively few numbers of kits that have been brought back from the brink (like yours) and rehabbed into running/driving vehicles.

There is alot of experience here on the VW platform and their suggestions are usually spot on...but there are very few individuals who can give suggestions based on the actual experience of doing it.
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Andy P
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very cool kit. And this is supposed to be a 2+2? Must be SUPER tight in the back seat? Even a standard 1600cc dual port would make this car go hard. They're so light.
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redfarmer84
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do you think noone restores the kit cars?
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jspbtown
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why do you think noone restores the kit cars?


Great question! Here are a couple of reasons why I think they don't:
1. Many people buy them and try to make them into something they are not. They try new platforms, they try new powerplants, they have HUGE ideas and they don't have the skill, time, or money to execute on them. As such they fall by the wayside.
2. People underestimate the amount of time it takes to get them roadworthy. On my Avenger I probably had 100 hours into each door to make it fit and work right. Thats 200 hours. Figure you might get 3 hours per night to work on the car and thats 67 nights just to get the doors done. Now lets say you get 3 nights per week on the car (every week) then thats 22 weeks just to get the doors right...thats almost 6 months. Most people's attention spans are not that long.
3. People underestimate the amount of money it takes. Cars like this are often bought under the impression that they will be cheap to build. And alot of the parts are cheap. But throw in gauges, and wheels and tires, and wiring, and paint and body work, and interiors and it adds up quickly. To get a car like your to any decent level of completion is easily $5000...and thats if you do alot of the work yourself. Many first timers into the kit world don't have that amount of disposable income.

So there are my top 3 answers. There may be alot more or others with different opinions.
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redfarmer84
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="jspbtown"]
Quote:
Why do you think noone restores the kit cars?

Great question!


Yeah, In my mind I am planning on spending around $7,500 to get it right. Hopefully no more but who knows. I sold my 2002 Trans Am WS6 and want a project to learn and for something to build, so why not? My doors are in good shape as in opening and closing. I noticed that the drivers door is a little misaligned where it meets the body (the front slant part sticks out too much). But overall they are mounted fine. Looking at that door from the side you really can't tell.
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gr8cobbler
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Great question! Here are a couple of reasons why I think they don't:
1. Many people buy them and try to make them into something they are not. They try new platforms, they try new powerplants, they have HUGE ideas and they don't have the skill, time, or money to execute on them. As such they fall by the wayside.
2. People underestimate the amount of time it takes to get them roadworthy. On my Avenger I probably had 100 hours into each door to make it fit and work right. Thats 200 hours. Figure you might get 3 hours per night to work on the car and thats 67 nights just to get the doors done. Now lets say you get 3 nights per week on the car (every week) then thats 22 weeks just to get the doors right...thats almost 6 months. Most people's attention spans are not that long.
3. People underestimate the amount of money it takes. Cars like this are often bought under the impression that they will be cheap to build. And alot of the parts are cheap. But throw in gauges, and wheels and tires, and wiring, and paint and body work, and interiors and it adds up quickly. To get a car like your to any decent level of completion is easily $5000...and thats if you do alot of the work yourself. Many first timers into the kit world don't have that amount of disposable income.



Nailed it
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redfarmer84
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok guys....just wanted to bring this back up and let you all know that I'm headed back home this weekend and hopefully going to work on the car. I will get some pictures of the door sills and other areas where it bolts up. Anything else yall would like to see? I am hoping to pull the steering column (we'll see how that goes cause my Bentley manual isn't here yet). Then unplug all wiring, fuel line, and brake lines; then hopfully get the body off! Should I remove doors and windsheild?? I know it will make it lighter to remove and probably needs to be done for the restoration, but what do yall recommend? I surely don't want to break that '63 Corvette windsheid!!

I've got to go in the morning and pick up a trailer load of Farmall tractor implements and parts where I bought out a local lawn & garden dealer; so that'll take up my morning. I've also got some folks supposed to come over to look and buy some various parts for their Farmall tractors, but who knows if they'll show...you know how that goes. I'm sure I'll get some time in working on the car though! Stay tuned for the next post!
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slalombuggy
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you take the windshield out build a case for it. That's what I'm planning on doing for the one in my Bounty Hunter. A nice strong plywood box full of foam to keep it safe and intact.

That is a really nice body, great lines and very sporty looking. the only ting I'd ditch is the Mustang taillights and go with some round ones like on hte Porsche 904s and other early sports cars.

brad
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GS guy
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely get your seating requirements and "ergonomic" dimensions figured out before you pull the body! Once it is off, you won't have any reference (for height at least) to use towards modifying the floor pans, shifter, etc.

You might try rigging the seat you have without the mounting brackets - sitting directly on the floor or maybe propped up just enough to get it balanced on the floor mounted seat rails. Some plywood and 2x4's can work in a pinch too. Figure out where you need to sit to be comfortable in the car - front to rear and in height, shifter, e-brake and steering wheel locations. Write all this down and make some sketches, that info wil be like gold when it's all apart. That will guide you as you decide on making lowered pans, and moving things around.

Jeff
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BIGMIKEY
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

X2 on what GS guy Jeff said. Don't underestimate the ergonomics. A car you cannot fit into and drive is a waste of your time and resources if you intend to keep it. Spending a lot of time and money on it just to find you cannot fit would be tragic.

I may be overly sensitive to this because I am a tall and large guy but I think my point is valid.

Also one clarification in my earlier post. I said to take "measures" to ensure you can fit. I didn't mean "measurements" I meant take steps, take action, make the necessary modification. Sorry for any confusion.

Mike T
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=787047&highlight=

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redfarmer84
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the tips guys. I'm glad y'all mentioned that, as I was going to try and do that later by fitting the body back on, but I like your idea of doing it now. I'm just intimidated on HOW I can get the measurments, as I don't really know where to begin. What do I measure exactly and where do I measure from? Is it something that you typically do a certain way? I will try to get that done tomorrow.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always look at the pedals as the starting point. They are a fixed point. From there I get my seat placement correct. Then I fit the steering wheel/column and shifter.

You can use the Napoleans hat section as a refference point front to back to take measurements and the side of the tunnel for side to side measurements. It's kind of a pain trying to take exact measurements so I get them as accurate as possible, but I also make detailed notes beside each number if there was a bit of fudging going on. A bit of trial and error but it's worth the time in hte end when the car fits you or the person your building it for.

brad
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redfarmer84
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok. I will try to do it that way. Does anyone else have any tips or suggestions??

Yesterday, I had about 2 hours to work (look & think) on the car and got the fuel line disconnected from the tank, noticed that there are no bolts at the front (hat area) and took some more pictures of the door sills where I had removed the bolts that I thought were holding down the body. It looks like the (9) bolts along the underside of the pan hold the heater channels on, and I haven't touched those. I'm gonna hopefully have a little more time to work today. Here are some pictures....


Here you can see the 3 lag style bolts that I removed to hopefully release the body
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here I was able to get a putty knife under this area, and you can see that I discovered some white adhesive? putty that is soft when worked with the knife. I was not able to get the knife under the seam to the right but about 1/2 inch.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Another View of the Drivers Door Sill followed by a Panorama of the Drivers Door Sill
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Close Up View of the Drivers Door Sill ....notice where the fiber glass "firewall" lips over the heater channel. Also notice the wood used along the sill where the bolt holes are.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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slalombuggy
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would start thinking about what kind of seats you want. For such a small cockpit I would think about some aluminum seats such as Kirkey vintage race seats or Speedway's bomber seats. Both are available in different widths and have padded covers available. A seat like this will free up a lot of space inside the car and you'll be able to get the seats lower and further back that a production or aftermarket framed seat.

The white putty is probably plumbers caulk that they used to seal the seam. Don't be worried about finding wood in the body. It was a very common practice to use wood to re-enforce bodies around mounting areas or as stiffeners.

brad
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HeidelbergJohn4.0
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

redfarmer84 wrote:
ok. I will try to do it that way. Does anyone else have any tips or suggestions??

Yesterday, I had about 2 hours to work (look & think) on the car and got the fuel line disconnected from the tank, noticed that there are no bolts at the front (hat area) and took some more pictures of the door sills where I had removed the bolts that I thought were holding down the body. It looks like the (9) bolts along the underside of the pan hold the heater channels on, and I haven't touched those. I'm gonna hopefully have a little more time to work today. Here are some pictures....


Here you can see the 3 lag style bolts that I removed to hopefully release the body
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here I was able to get a putty knife under this area, and you can see that I discovered some white adhesive? putty that is soft when worked with the knife. I was not able to get the knife under the seam to the right but about 1/2 inch.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Another View of the Drivers Door Sill followed by a Panorama of the Drivers Door Sill
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Close Up View of the Drivers Door Sill ....notice where the fiber glass "firewall" lips over the heater channel. Also notice the wood used along the sill where the bolt holes are.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


personally, I wouldn't touch that seam. I would leave the body attached to the steel heater channels and remove the pan bolts. That bond to the heater channels is the only thing I see keeping that body from folding in half. Those glass doorsills look awfully thin to be expecting them to keep that door opening intact.
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