| Author |
Message |
Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22728
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
|
 Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:59 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
None of this is anything new- Germany fought nearly all of WW2 synthesizing fuels and oils from alternative sources, and we had "gasohol' in the 1970s.
Yes, you will have to make some tuning adjustments, and yes, your MPGs will decrease with any bio-fuel.
The thing you have to watch with biofuels is acidity v. lubricity. Too much acid in the fuel is corrosive. Adding a quart of ATF per ten gallons of fuel- ANY fuel- is an excellent "old school" trick to keep things lubed (think "top lubricant") and keep things CLEAN without doing any harm to the engine. (Be aware of any pitfalls of doing this on modern cars, though- catalytic converters and sensitive engine management parts may not react well).
Adding a quart of ATF to the tank has been a well known "magic bullet" for Diesel engines for years in this regard. It works for gasoline, too.
Adding ATF to a tank of gas slows the burn and will often help with or eliminate "pinging" as well.
I wouldn't hesitate to use biofuels in an ACVW (and have done so), but, as always, you need to do your due diligence and PAY ATTENTION to how the engine runs and feels on whichever fuel you choose. Sometimes it's just not compatible.
Years ago, a good friend owned a 1963 356B that was his pride and joy. When he moved to Or. I maintained the car for him. Had the car running just tip top, but he was constantly complaining that the car was getting 10- 12 MPG where it used to get close to 30. I went through the car stem to stern, and even road tested it extensively to make sure the mileage counter wasn't hanging up. I never could find any issue.
One day we were discussing it and he said he'd drive it more if it didn't just drink the hi- test gas at $ (some astronomical sum like $8 a gallon- this was around 2001!!!). I asked him where the hell he was buying his gas, and he said, Oh, I'm buying this special 118 octane stuff from the local oil co./ distributor.
I told him to run that tank down really low, then fill up with the regular old hi- test at the gas station across the street. I readjusted and re- synced the carbs using the sniffer, and guess what happened?  He didn't even notice any less performance.
People: Fuels and oils are just like any other part or tool- there's right ones and then there's wrong ones for every job. What it comes down to at the end of the day is that you need to use that which suits your car's needs best- and the only way you can TRULY determine this is by PAYING ATTENTION.
You can debate this till the cows come home with all types of scientific formulas, but it will always come back to this.
I use bio- fuels wherever I can- I just really like sticking it to Big Oil. I've run ethanol in my ACVWs and gasoline Mercedes, and biodiesel in my Diesels. I've played around with brewing my own fuels and doing SVO conversions.
It either works for you or it doesn't.
_________________
Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Willo357 wrote: |
Found all my data, here is the 30 PSI vid
Made up a comparison pic too, let me know what you think, spray pattern seems to get wider with pressure which I think is what you mean about more likly to wet the walls.
|
Very nice research! Yes!
By the way...the people I have met over the years that had the most experience modeling what spray cones will look like at various psi....and most importantly...flow rate.....were a handful of engineers that worked for a pressure washer manufacturer.
They showed pictures and diagrams for what happened to spray patterns with any given nozzle as pressure and flow rate increased or decreased. It was very cool. I had no idea at that time that so much engineering went into a simple piece like a high pressure washer nozzle...though not your average hardware store variety.
The really interesting thing was that with a certain nozzle exit shape (as well as flow vanes on the inside)....water/liquid may exit in a stream...because its forced out of the nozzle that way and being non-compressable it is forced into a shape inside of that nozzle opening…...but at a pre-determined distance (determined by flow rate X pressure leveraged by liquid viscosity and velocity created by pressure....in other words by design)….that stream will come apart and atomize.
The distance the stream comes apart can be engineered by a wide variety of variables. As pressure increases…the stream(s) stay cohesive for a farther distance from the nozzle before coming apart and atomizing. Lower pressure equals shorter distance before coming apart. There are limits with every orifice size and liquid where this holds true.
Too low of a pressure and you may not get a cohesive stream at all…..too high and it may be not be a spray or a stream that comes out but a ragged splatter. Other details like cut back nozzle openings …meaning ground conical on one side of the opening or both…can effect the speed at which the stream starts to spread into a droplet pattern or the angle the pattern takes.
Of course all of the above is without a pintle in the orifice. You find some or all of the above characteristics in modern disc type multi orifice injectors.
Being that you are working on spray patterns and have links on YouTube you have probably already seen these…but at this link is an example of a multi stream injector with multiple openings andspraysterams that decay into a spray pattern
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzlIYIkL3sA
So you might ask why is a wide spray pattern cone like that acceptable but one like you showed in your video not acceptable?….because of the design or the ports of the engine its going into.
In most modern vehicles that get the Bosch style injectors….the injector is very very close to the back of the valve….so most of the entire spray pattern goes into the open port or at the very least against the back of the intake valve. Cars with sequential injection have less problems with this than banked or paired because the a moving stream of intake air the .injector fires into.
Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vlad01
Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010
Posts: 3069
Location: Australia
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
sequential injection is only really used at speeds around idle to address such a problem, although I believe its more for idle emissions as no one I know of who has does researched sequential vs batch have noticed real world any benefit from the sequential.
sequential decays into batch injection shortly after off idle on all of the ECU's I and others I know tuned with.
We have all questioned the use of it so the conclusion is that it must be from emissions stand point?
Anyone else have anything to add to this?
I might add my modified delco ECUs do 2 injector pluses per RPM in batch mode. Better atomization I guess? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I enjoy that the OP has never come back to post after starting the fire and casually wandering off... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vlad01
Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010
Posts: 3069
Location: Australia
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
he is probably doing this right now.
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Willo357
Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2010
Posts: 483
Location: Melbourne
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| vlad01 wrote: |
sequential injection is only really used at speeds around idle to address such a problem, although I believe its more for idle emissions as no one I know of who has does researched sequential vs batch have noticed real world any benefit from the sequential.
sequential decays into batch injection shortly after off idle on all of the ECU's I and others I know tuned with.
We have all questioned the use of it so the conclusion is that it must be from emissions stand point?
Anyone else have anything to add to this?
I might add my modified delco ECUs do 2 injector pluses per RPM in batch mode. Better atomization I guess? |
I think it a good thread and lotsa good insight from ppl.... 
From the professors I have talked to about sequential injection, the conclusion is that there may be some marginal torque improvements maybe 1% on a good day. Rather there is significant emissions advantage and thats why it is used on production cars.
My understanding is that when emissions are out of the picture, precision in the lambda is not so critical and you can add a little extra fuel for transient state with out sacrificing any performance. However this is only if you have the injectors shooting at the intake valve.
If the injectors are further upstream there is no point at all in sequential injection.
Most of the stuff on production engines these days are purely for emissions purposes with the legislation becoming extremely difficult to achieve.
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...highlight= |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nate M.
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2003
Posts: 1306
Location: Anacortes, WA U.S.A.
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
Lovin' this discussion; good stuff!!
So flex-fuel cars use a fuel sensor that is readily available which sends a varied voltage signal to the ECU which interprets that signal into the % of ethanol in the fuel. So with that said (and much smarter people out there than me  ) why couldn't this same sensor be used on a Megasquirt system?? Or would it even be needed when running a WBo2 sensor to correct things??
While I'm not personally a fan of ethanol in fuel, it appears that it's here to stay so I guess I had better learn to tune with it.
_________________
Regards,
Nate M.
Squarsche build
Heavy Metal Affliction feature
For heaven's sake, put a type4 and a Porsche 5-speed in there. . . It's the right thing to do!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Willo357
Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2010
Posts: 483
Location: Melbourne
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Nate M. wrote: |
Lovin' this discussion; good stuff!!
So flex-fuel cars use a fuel sensor that is readily available which sends a varied voltage signal to the ECU which interprets that signal into the % of ethanol in the fuel. So with that said (and much smarter people out there than me ) why couldn't this same sensor be used on a Megasquirt system?? Or would it even be needed when running a WBo2 sensor to correct things??
While I'm not personally a fan of ethanol in fuel, it appears that it's here to stay so I guess I had better learn to tune with it. |
Short answer is yes it can. With MS3X it is as simple as wiring it up. with ms2 you need to do some customization. I however just run a trim pot (sensors are like $200) that I can manually set, which blends between an e85 and gasoline. In this vid you can see the PW change with the pot input.
BTW I wouldnt have picked that Tram likes Alc fuels...... lol guess he is full of surprises. just need to get him on to MS 
Link
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...highlight= |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vlad01
Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010
Posts: 3069
Location: Australia
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Nate M. wrote: |
Lovin' this discussion; good stuff!!
So flex-fuel cars use a fuel sensor that is readily available which sends a varied voltage signal to the ECU which interprets that signal into the % of ethanol in the fuel. So with that said (and much smarter people out there than me ) why couldn't this same sensor be used on a Megasquirt system?? Or would it even be needed when running a WBo2 sensor to correct things??
While I'm not personally a fan of ethanol in fuel, it appears that it's here to stay so I guess I had better learn to tune with it. |
its the way of the future for old cars with internal combustion engines. say 20 years from now, who knows what heaps of shit car makes will make then. normal fuel may not even be available or cost too much. You are at the mercy of the oil companies.
with ethanol you have the potentially the ability to break free of that and retain the classic cars of the past and keep them running. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22728
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| vlad01 wrote: |
| Nate M. wrote: |
Lovin' this discussion; good stuff!!
So flex-fuel cars use a fuel sensor that is readily available which sends a varied voltage signal to the ECU which interprets that signal into the % of ethanol in the fuel. So with that said (and much smarter people out there than me ) why couldn't this same sensor be used on a Megasquirt system?? Or would it even be needed when running a WBo2 sensor to correct things??
While I'm not personally a fan of ethanol in fuel, it appears that it's here to stay so I guess I had better learn to tune with it. |
its the way of the future for old cars with internal combustion engines. say 20 years from now, who knows what heaps of shit car makes will make then. normal fuel may not even be available or cost too much. You are at the mercy of the oil companies.
with ethanol you have the potentially the ability to break free of that and retain the classic cars of the past and keep them running. |
You're only at the mercy of the oil companies if you want to be.
_________________
Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Willo357
Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2010
Posts: 483
Location: Melbourne
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Tram wrote: |
| vlad01 wrote: |
| Nate M. wrote: |
Lovin' this discussion; good stuff!!
So flex-fuel cars use a fuel sensor that is readily available which sends a varied voltage signal to the ECU which interprets that signal into the % of ethanol in the fuel. So with that said (and much smarter people out there than me ) why couldn't this same sensor be used on a Megasquirt system?? Or would it even be needed when running a WBo2 sensor to correct things??
While I'm not personally a fan of ethanol in fuel, it appears that it's here to stay so I guess I had better learn to tune with it. |
its the way of the future for old cars with internal combustion engines. say 20 years from now, who knows what heaps of shit car makes will make then. normal fuel may not even be available or cost too much. You are at the mercy of the oil companies.
with ethanol you have the potentially the ability to break free of that and retain the classic cars of the past and keep them running. |
You're only at the mercy of the oil companies if you want to be. |
Thats it, nothing like a little home brew
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...highlight= |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vlad01
Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010
Posts: 3069
Location: Australia
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
isn't home brew spirits illegal without some sort of commercial license in the states?
what I heard it it was made illegal over a dispute between Henry Ford and the oil companies at the time of the model A, The oil companies had their say. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22728
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| vlad01 wrote: |
isn't home brew spirits illegal without some sort of commercial license in the states?
what I heard it it was made illegal over a dispute between Henry Ford and the oil companies at the time of the model A, The oil companies had their say. |
False.
_________________
Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vlad01
Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010
Posts: 3069
Location: Australia
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| care to enlighten me then? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22728
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| vlad01 wrote: |
| care to enlighten me then? |
All I can tell you is that it's not illegal. If you want to SELL it, that's a different story.
_________________
Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nate M.
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2003
Posts: 1306
Location: Anacortes, WA U.S.A.
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Tram wrote: |
| vlad01 wrote: |
| care to enlighten me then? |
All I can tell you is that it's not illegal. If you want to SELL it, that's a different story. |
A buddy of mine recently bought a counter-top still that's about the size of a coffee pot. It's capable of churning out around a quart every 1.5 days!! Freakin' amazing!!
For your own consumption is O.K. (which is surprising if you ask me) Wanna sell your hooch?? Well, that's where it gets interesting and expensive.
I've got Deception Distillery right across the street from my shop. I recently got a 5th of their award winning "Moonshine". . . Holy crap is that tasty when mixed with Newman's Own Virgin Lemonade. Mmmmmmm. Not nearly as good with Minutemaid Lemonade. . . WTH is with that??
_________________
Regards,
Nate M.
Squarsche build
Heavy Metal Affliction feature
For heaven's sake, put a type4 and a Porsche 5-speed in there. . . It's the right thing to do!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nate M.
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2003
Posts: 1306
Location: Anacortes, WA U.S.A.
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Tram wrote: |
| vlad01 wrote: |
| Nate M. wrote: |
Lovin' this discussion; good stuff!!
So flex-fuel cars use a fuel sensor that is readily available which sends a varied voltage signal to the ECU which interprets that signal into the % of ethanol in the fuel. So with that said (and much smarter people out there than me ) why couldn't this same sensor be used on a Megasquirt system?? Or would it even be needed when running a WBo2 sensor to correct things??
While I'm not personally a fan of ethanol in fuel, it appears that it's here to stay so I guess I had better learn to tune with it. |
its the way of the future for old cars with internal combustion engines. say 20 years from now, who knows what heaps of shit car makes will make then. normal fuel may not even be available or cost too much. You are at the mercy of the oil companies.
with ethanol you have the potentially the ability to break free of that and retain the classic cars of the past and keep them running. |
You're only at the mercy of the oil companies if you want to be. |
Let me clarify a little. It's not that I'm against ethanol based fuels or alternative fuels in general. When it comes to the ethanol though, I don't like what it does to aluminum and rubber in the fuel systems. To truly be successful when using it you need to change fuel lines and keep an eye on your carbs and fuel pumps. It can really cause problems in gas powered boats and other equipment which gets only occasional use.
Different fuels have different characteristics and thus the equipment they're used in needs to be set-up for the fuel you run.
_________________
Regards,
Nate M.
Squarsche build
Heavy Metal Affliction feature
For heaven's sake, put a type4 and a Porsche 5-speed in there. . . It's the right thing to do!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Multi69s
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5364
Location: Lefty, CA
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vlad01
Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010
Posts: 3069
Location: Australia
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I just looked up for oz, up to 5L still is legal for home use.
any bigger is illegal.
its didn't ay anything about multiple 5L stills though  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Tram wrote: |
| vlad01 wrote: |
| care to enlighten me then? |
All I can tell you is that it's not illegal. If you want to SELL it, that's a different story. |
Yup. And IF you wanted to do it all nice and legal, contact the ATF , and ask for the paperwork, so you can apply for a legal license to manufacture. It'll cost you a couple of postage stamps (I don't know if they'll accept a fax). That's all that was required back in the 80's. Now there's probably 3 or more pages added (for other entities), and some sort of fee. 
But to sell it, you'll need a different license, and that one is probably at the state level.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
