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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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 Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Multi69s wrote: |
Well, I'm back to throw some more fuel or "Corn Squeezings" into the fire. Now I just want to make sure that my position is made clear. I am not personally against E85 or Eth for the person that has the experience or the time to research different fuels. Hell I run AV gas in a couple of my off road toys because I can not afford race gas (I'll catch hell for that) and I have more then a little experience with Meth (the other kind) in midgets. However, this story by the Associated Press was just ran in today's paper, so in reality, who knows what fuel we will have in the future.
http://www.fresnobee.com/2013/11/12/3604347/the-secret-dirty-cost-of-obamas.html |
Here's the deal: There's no "free lunch". No matter what we do, there's going to be a cost, and there are going to be politicians beholden to corporate concerns that want them to ignore those costs.
The key to any and everything is responsible management. The fatal flaw with ANY energy policy is that dirty money is always easier and more profitable than honest clean money.
This is why we have the Mafia... and the government.
_________________
Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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vlad01
Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010
Posts: 3069
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: |
| Multi69s wrote: |
Well, I'm back to throw some more fuel or "Corn Squeezings" into the fire. Now I just want to make sure that my position is made clear. I am not personally against E85 or Eth for the person that has the experience or the time to research different fuels. Hell I run AV gas in a couple of my off road toys because I can not afford race gas (I'll catch hell for that) and I have more then a little experience with Meth (the other kind) in midgets. However, this story by the Associated Press was just ran in today's paper, so in reality, who knows what fuel we will have in the future.
http://www.fresnobee.com/2013/11/12/3604347/the-secret-dirty-cost-of-obamas.html |
Here's the deal: There's no "free lunch". No matter what we do, there's going to be a cost, and there are going to be politicians beholden to corporate concerns that want them to ignore those costs.
The key to any and everything is responsible management. The fatal flaw with ANY energy policy is that dirty money is always easier and more profitable than honest clean money.
This is why we have the Mafia... and the government. |
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Nate M.
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2003
Posts: 1306
Location: Anacortes, WA U.S.A.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: |
This is why we have the Mafia... and the government. |
And the difference between the two is. . .?? 
_________________
Regards,
Nate M.
Squarsche build
Heavy Metal Affliction feature
For heaven's sake, put a type4 and a Porsche 5-speed in there. . . It's the right thing to do!! |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Nate M. wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
This is why we have the Mafia... and the government. |
And the difference between the two is. . .?? |
The Mafia has an honor code.
_________________
Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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Nate M.
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2003
Posts: 1306
Location: Anacortes, WA U.S.A.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:22 am Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: |
| Nate M. wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
This is why we have the Mafia... and the government. |
And the difference between the two is. . .?? |
The Mafia has an honor code. |
No truer words have been spoken. < that's a nervous laugh. . .
_________________
Regards,
Nate M.
Squarsche build
Heavy Metal Affliction feature
For heaven's sake, put a type4 and a Porsche 5-speed in there. . . It's the right thing to do!! |
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vlad01
Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010
Posts: 3069
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:58 am Post subject: |
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bahaha ain't that the truth.
scum always floats on top. |
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Multi69s
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5363
Location: Lefty, CA
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daos
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017
Posts: 309
Location: Stockholm, SWE
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol? E85? Volkswagen? Type 3? |
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so..? ethanol? e85? vw? come on. way more relevant now than it was way back in 2013.
oh, and a couple of things need clearing up:
1. there is no acid in ethanol.
2. ethanol does NOT corrode aluminium. it does like to wreak havoc on old rubber though. |
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Multi69s
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5363
Location: Lefty, CA
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| Posted: Sat May 01, 2021 7:40 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol? E85? Volkswagen? Type 3? |
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| daos wrote: |
| so..? ethanol? e85? vw? come on. way more relevant now than it was way back in 2013 |
It really depends where you live. In theory you can make more power with E85, but in doing so your engine will have to be built for it. Then what happens if you have to run traditional gas, Retard the hell out of your timing? So I guess that if E85 is very readily available, and you are prepared to replace some components, okay. However, I live in California, with a city population of 650,000, and to my knowledge, we only have three stations that offer E85.
If you go that route, I would definitely put in fuel stabilizer any time it sat.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight= |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat May 01, 2021 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol? E85? Volkswagen? Type 3? |
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| daos wrote: |
so..? ethanol? e85? vw? come on. way more relevant now than it was way back in 2013.
oh, and a couple of things need clearing up:
1. there is no acid in ethanol.
2. ethanol does NOT corrode aluminium. it does like to wreak havoc on old rubber though. |
Some details.....that are causing the question and your answer to be a bit deceptive: 
1. There is no "acid" in any alcohol. And....acid is not a requirement for metal corrosion nor does the presence of acid mean a metal is going to corrode. Just like alcohols.....there are many types, polarities and solution strength of acids.
Also.....I dont think anyone was saying that ethanol ALONE causes corrosion to aluminum. HOWEVER....the fact that ethanol absorbs massive amounts of water.....that factor readily and commonly causes corrosion. Thats already fact.
But ....a good bit of that fact is primarily due to how ethanol fuel is used. If you have 10% E and never fully run your tank down and you live in humid, four seasons climate.....its been a widespread problem that the ethanol causes fuel stratification....when used this way.
One might easily counter that we KNOW this happens. Simply be sure to run the tank down on each fill up....and occasionally use a methanol based fuel dryer.
To add to this.....in a humid environment you can literally WATCH ethanol blended fuel in small containers like....say....a cup or a carburetor bowl.....absorb maximum moisture rate in minutes. It turns cloudy/milky. That.....is corrosive.....IF.....its left this way for an extended time. Again....comes down to usage. If you know this happens....either do not use E10....or start the damn thing up once a week.
2. As noted with differences in alcohol......methanol most assuredly causes corrosion of a range of metals. Methanol was the primary alcohol back in the original "gasohol" days in the 1970s.....and it ate carbs, pumps and fuel injectors for lunch.
That poorly reported memory is part of what causes many to think that ethanol is automatically corrosive. In their minds.....methanol and ethanol both = alcohol and therefore alcohol causes corrosion.
3. Ethanol....does not automatically eat rubber. It eats certain TYPES of rubber and is more efficient at this.....when its blended with other chemicals.....AND.....in the presence of MOISTURE.
And it has little to do with rubber age. All rubber changes over time. The gasoline even without ethanol is breaking the hoses and gaskets down over time. Putting ethanol in is just another rate of acceleration.
Example....ethanol does excellent with neoprene and EPDM....but neither of those make useful fuel lines. The chemicals in gasoline eat those rubber types. Good RUBBER fuel lines should be made of a fluoroelastomer.....like Viton. But.....ethanol Slowly eats Viton!
See the problem there? This is one of the primary reasons why......the fuel lines on most modern cars....is primarily nylon and metal tube.....except where it absolutely must have a wide range of flex.
Ok.....E85......the most common octane number around here is 105 to 108. Great fuel!. But it also runs much cooler in the combustion chamber. The caloric output of E85 is roughly 30% lower than gasoline. You need whatever carb or efi you want to run....to flow roughly 30% more. It takes more E85 to equal gasoline.
And......every single rubber part you use in the fuel loop will need to be a different material. E85 injectors, pumps and FPR....use different materials. All of this is in addition to the numerous internal engine changes required to make use of yybe ethanol.....compressiin timing etc.
Lastly....back to the corrosion issue. E10 levels of ethanol are not corrosive to metals.....by themselves. However....pure ethanol IS corrosive to metals because ot contains soluble chlorides.
E85....may be strong enough to require a plastic fuel tank.
A white paper on the subject.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328196308...20ethanol.
Ray |
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daos
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017
Posts: 309
Location: Stockholm, SWE
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 3:54 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol? E85? Volkswagen? Type 3? |
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multi69s – true, i personally would not consider trying to run both fuels – one or the other. e85 is readily available in europe, so the switch would be mainly about trying to get my car compatible.
ray – good info and great link, thanks for that. i was responding partly to a comment here about 'the acid in ethanol' being detrimental to components. also comments about ethanol corroding aluminium. i think people are confounding meth with eth.
too much misinformation circling around ethanol fuels – and i don't mean thesamba specifically, it's pervasive in all forums. i also get tired of hearing how 'modern fuels are getting worse and worse'. horseshit - imho. more like the opposite due to improving technology. but sure, our old cars aren't designed for modern fuels with ethanol content, that's relevant and certainly not insurmountable. i remember the hysteria before the switch to unleaded and yet here we are, with tons of classics still working just fine. now people are pulling their hair out over the coming (europe) switch to e10 
ethanol energy content – e85 is 30% lower as stated, but ethanol also cools incoming air considerably. so denser air = more air to combust, which should slightly compensate for its lower btu. question is how much? |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 8:27 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol? E85? Volkswagen? Type 3? |
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| daos wrote: |
multi69s – true, i personally would not consider trying to run both fuels – one or the other. e85 is readily available in europe, so the switch would be mainly about trying to get my car compatible.
ray – good info and great link, thanks for that. i was responding partly to a comment here about 'the acid in ethanol' being detrimental to components. also comments about ethanol corroding aluminium. i think people are confounding meth with eth.
too much misinformation circling around ethanol fuels – and i don't mean thesamba specifically, it's pervasive in all forums. i also get tired of hearing how 'modern fuels are getting worse and worse'. horseshit - imho. more like the opposite due to improving technology. but sure, our old cars aren't designed for modern fuels with ethanol content, that's relevant and certainly not insurmountable. i remember the hysteria before the switch to unleaded and yet here we are, with tons of classics still working just fine. now people are pulling their hair out over the coming (europe) switch to e10
ethanol energy content – e85 is 30% lower as stated, but ethanol also cools incoming air considerably. so denser air = more air to combust, which should slightly compensate for its lower btu. question is how much? |
The problem with the lower specific heat of combustion.....is not that it doesnt help to rum slightly cooler......its that we NEED the combustion heat to burn the fuel efficiently.....so you have to change a bunch things in tuning to get it to burn as completely and cleanly. Not a problem.....just different than dropping it into our engines as they are.
As a fuel....ethanol is just fine! One of the big reasons why the information out there is so screwed up......is because, like it or not.....ethanol fuel is hugely political in the USA. Anytime something becomes political.....its reporting is usually altered by ommission of fact (if not outright lying) to fit a narrative.
The problem in the US.....is not ethanol as a fuel. It's not the fault of ethanol.
The problem here is how its produced. Producing ethanol by fermenting and distilling corn.....is ludicrously stupid. Corn is one of THE HIGHEST ....water and fertilizer usage crops on the planet. That nitorgen fertilizer requires HUGE amounts of natural gas and/or propane in production. That water in all but a few Midwestern states ......requires electricity or diesel to pump.
The storage and sileage of corn to ship to market is one of the largest users of propane for drying in the US.
The shipping cost by rail....the energy used for mashing and fermentztion and distillation are all huge energy cost factors.
The fact that no alcohols....especially ethanol.....can ever be shipped by pipeline.....mean that 100% of it is shipped by rail and truck.....another cost factor.
The fact that it has been scientifically proven back in the late 90s.....and the hearings are still in the C-span archives I would bet.....that addition of ethanol over about 3-5%.....has no benefit on NOX emissions.....and that the 10% and 15% blends we see are strictly products of the ethanol industry lobby to keep production high...........
.......all of these cost centers conspire to make it a fact that a bare minimum of 23% and upwards to 30%+ of all ethanol for fuel......is government tax subsidized.
And.....none of the cost factors above.....are captured in the direct cost of ethanol. They are subsidized.
Its a great fuel.....but Its not competitive with our current production model.
In the early 2000's.....the narrative around the need for ethanol quietly changed. First it was about clean air. Ok.....got that.
But when it did not produce as good of an air quality result.....because higher ethanol blend content actually produces higher hydrocarbon and equal CO2 emissions to non ethanol blends.......the narrative changed to....."ethanol is the way to get the US off of middle east/foreign oil".......the blend content was then starting to get pushed to 15%.
In reality......we got off of foreign oil anyway.....and it was not ethanol that did it.
The ethanol lobby is super powerful. They and the media cover up too much information. Its why you hear so much muddy water BS about it.
Ethanol is good.....ethanol from corn is stupid. Ray |
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