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r.e.wing_fc3s
Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2010
Posts: 591
Location: Vanagon Capitol USA: Bellingham, WA
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 Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:16 am Post subject: bad febi / bilstein rear wheel cylinders |
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the febi bilstein (made in italy)rear wheel cylinders dont have the oem style internal spring that maintains tension against the shoes at rest. sometimes this doesnt seem to make much of a difference. recently it resulted in a bad pedal feel ordeal as the pedal would sink to take up the slack between the shoes and wheel cylinder. fyi
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Reference Automotive: NW Washingtons Vanagon Specialist. (360)366-6965. referenceautomotive.com |
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Jeff's Old Volks Home
Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2011
Posts: 819
Location: Chester Basin, Nova Scotia
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| Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:11 am Post subject: |
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The bad pedal feel is from a little air in the brakes or not properly adjusted...
Just saying...
Jeff |
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jetpoweredmonkey
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2004
Posts: 194
Location: Sacramento, CA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:50 am Post subject: |
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I don't agree. I have just overhauled my entire brake system - VC big brake kit, new German master, new hoses, new drums, shoes and NAPA rear wheel cylinders. I didn't know about the internal springs in the wheel cylinders.
Pedal feel is good after getting the brand new German rear drums turned to make them true. Grrrr....
However, if you drive for a few miles without braking, it takes one pump to get the rear cylinders back. I did pressure bleed from the master cylinder and there is no air in the lines. In fact, Vanagon brakes practically bleed themselves, I've never seen any air come out at the wheel.
I'm going to try a set of the ATE spring loaded cylinders. I've had this problem ever since I've had the van and I am now 99% sure this is the culprit.
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1991 Westfalia 2WD |
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kalispell365
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2010
Posts: 889
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:54 am Post subject: Re: bad febi / bilstein rear wheel cylinders |
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| r.e.wing_fc3s wrote: |
| the febi bilstein (made in italy)rear wheel cylinders dont have the oem style internal spring that maintains tension against the shoes at rest. sometimes this doesnt seem to make much of a difference. recently it resulted in a bad pedal feel ordeal as the pedal would sink to take up the slack between the shoes and wheel cylinder. fyi |
What he said is absolutely the truth...Get either ATE or FAG german cylinders...I have found the raybestos "professional grade" were indeed genuine FAG german wheel cylinders with the VW emblem ground off the casting! |
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August978
Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2012
Posts: 19
Location: South Denver
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:35 pm Post subject: Rear wheel cylinder |
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I just got new (2012) BRAX rear wheel cylinder from CIP1.com. They don't have an internal spring to hold tension but I think I have always had a fade in the rear brakes regardless of the cylinder design. I am thinking it is a problem with aging rubber brake hoses. So I also got a set of stainless GW brake hoses.
Cylinder part numbers 211-611-047f oem
BRAX 8161301200 (wheel cylinder 23.80mm)
BRAX/cip1 is screwing us here since the wheel cylinder is actually a 211-611-047-D for a 1972 Bus. I see lots of parts on cip1 for both bus and vanagon, very fishy. |
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August978
Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2012
Posts: 19
Location: South Denver
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:53 pm Post subject: Rear wheel cylinder |
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| I tried to return the BRAX CYLINDERS to cip1 but they investigated with BRAX and their conclusion is that the new design of the gaskets on the cylinder "creates a vacuum which keeps the cylinders in the proper position." I think a vacuum would do the opposite of a spring, but in any case I don't have enough proof to get my money back do I can buy the regular ATE cylinders. |
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jetpoweredmonkey
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2004
Posts: 194
Location: Sacramento, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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I finally got my ATE rear cylinders in and the pedal pump problem is history. Best brakes I've ever had in a Vanagon! In my opinion, wheel cylinders without the spring are incorrect and unsafe.
Nice solid brakes with no pumping required...priceless!
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1991 Westfalia 2WD |
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rubbachicken
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2004
Posts: 3058
Location: socal
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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damn i've not looked inside a wheel cylinder to see if the newer ones have springs in them 
i guess i'm going back inside burni's rear brakes, to have look.
why did manufacturers decide not to use springs in them, saving money or weight 
or have they decided making parts unsafe is OK now 
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lucy our westy
lucy's BIG adventure
meet 'burni'
markswagen {mobile mechanic} san diego area all early VW's cared for.
619 201 0310 or 617 935 4182 |
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jetpoweredmonkey
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2004
Posts: 194
Location: Sacramento, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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Well, if you haven't noticed the need to pump up the rear brakes every time you stop, I think you're OK. Definitely wasn't optional on my van!
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1991 Westfalia 2WD |
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jimeg
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Joined: May 14, 2007
Posts: 510
Location: PNW
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Wellington
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2004
Posts: 1890
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:01 am Post subject: |
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The first time I redid my entire brake system, more of a preventative maintenance thing, I put in new rear wheel cylinders from CIP and experience the same thing.
I tried everything, bleeding, adjusting. I read the gowesty article and had my doubts about the ATE rear cylinders, but I bought the ATE cylinders and the problem was solved. |
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rubbachicken
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2004
Posts: 3058
Location: socal
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:26 am Post subject: |
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i have, with lucy, i thought it was air in the system, i've bled and bled, stainless braided lines, i was disappointed, but learned to live with it, i still have the one's i took out i think, today i will get them apart and have a look.
| jetpoweredmonkey wrote: |
| Well, if you haven't noticed the need to pump up the rear brakes every time you stop, I think you're OK. Definitely wasn't optional on my van! |
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lucy our westy
lucy's BIG adventure
meet 'burni'
markswagen {mobile mechanic} san diego area all early VW's cared for.
619 201 0310 or 617 935 4182 |
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Phishman068
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Joined: February 19, 2007
Posts: 1868
Location: Pittsburgh PA (ish)
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rubbachicken
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2004
Posts: 3058
Location: socal
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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i've just taken apart some OLD heel cylinders, no springs in them either
this has me thinking now, about putting in some springs from ace hardware or similar, i need to guess how strong or not the springs should be.
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lucy our westy
lucy's BIG adventure
meet 'burni'
markswagen {mobile mechanic} san diego area all early VW's cared for.
619 201 0310 or 617 935 4182 |
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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I'll be removing them from any old cyls I pull and replace.
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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crazyvwvanman
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Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 9937
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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If you look closely at the photo at the top of this thread, the manual page with the drawing shows a deep hole in the back of the wheel cylinder pistons for the ends of the spring to seat in. The other wheel cyl in the photo has no spring and that piston has no hole to locate one. How exactly would you add the old spring to the new one? I think you would need to use a different spring.
Mark |
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rubbachicken
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2004
Posts: 3058
Location: socal
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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the one's i took of burni, were one of each, neither had the springs, i was thinking a spring close in size to the bore size of the wheel cylinder.
i think 3/4" ish, so i will look in ace when i'm in there next and see what they have.
| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
If you look closely at the photo at the top of this thread, the manual page with the drawing shows a deep hole in the back of the wheel cylinder pistons for the ends of the spring to seat in. The other wheel cyl in the photo has no spring and that piston has no hole to locate one. How exactly would you add the old spring to the new one? I think you would need to use a different spring.
Mark |
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lucy our westy
lucy's BIG adventure
meet 'burni'
markswagen {mobile mechanic} san diego area all early VW's cared for.
619 201 0310 or 617 935 4182 |
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jetpoweredmonkey
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2004
Posts: 194
Location: Sacramento, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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This info ought to be a sticky. It took me forever to figure out this issue and I just happened across it on GW's site. Sounds like they pulled their hair out, too!
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1991 Westfalia 2WD |
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dhaavers
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 7757
Location: NE MN (tinyurl.com/dhaaverslocation)
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| jetpoweredmonkey wrote: |
| ...It took me forever to figure out this issue and I just happened across it on GW's site... |
Where exactly on the GW site? Got a link? Thanks...
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86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS> |
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syncrodoka
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12008
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| dhaavers wrote: |
| jetpoweredmonkey wrote: |
| ...It took me forever to figure out this issue and I just happened across it on GW's site... |
Where exactly on the GW site? Got a link? Thanks... |
It is in their ad- http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=2392&category_id=71&category_parent_id=
FWIW the ones that I got from VC also had the springs, I just put pressure on them and they sprang back. |
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