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rustwagens
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:18 pm    Post subject: pistons Reply with quote

i have a 69 square and was wondering about slip in pistons into a type 3, are they type 3 specific? also how big can you go (piston size) and what does that make from the engine( like 1641 or what?) thanks i'm new to the engine side of things
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Glenn Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't waste your time with 87 or 88 slip in cylinders. They don't last as long as stock 85.5 and the gain in horse power is minimal.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
Don't waste your time with 87 or 88 slip in cylinders. They don't last as long as stock 85.5 and the gain in horse power is minimal.


I disagre about the 87 mm pistons and barrels...the 87s were factory availale in the 60s....yes, they were available from VW!!!

88s are OK if you use the thick wall cylinders from Gene Berg...if they're still available!!! Course, you have to bore the case and heads!

Personally, I run 90.5s...thick cylinder walls!!!

As far as 87s not being worth the effort...they are! As long as you increase the cam and carb(s)!

I maintained 70MPH up the Grapevine on I5 with a 1641cc engine running 87mm cylinders, dual 40mm Kadrons, 041 heads, Engle 110 cam, and a single quiet header!
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Factory Trained wrote:
Personally, I run 90.5s...thick cylinder walls!!!


What are 90.5 thick walls? All 90.5 have the same thickness.

And I would never bother with 88s. The "slip ins" are thin and will warp. The "machine ins" are not worth it since you might as well go with 90.5s.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Factory Trained wrote:
Glenn wrote:
Don't waste your time with 87 or 88 slip in cylinders. They don't last as long as stock 85.5 and the gain in horse power is minimal.


I disagre about the 87 mm pistons and barrels...the 87s were factory availale in the 60s....yes, they were available from VW!!!

88s are OK if you use the thick wall cylinders from Gene Berg...if they're still available!!! Course, you have to bore the case and heads!

Personally, I run 90.5s...thick cylinder walls!!!

As far as 87s not being worth the effort...they are! As long as you increase the cam and carb(s)!

I maintained 70MPH up the Grapevine on I5 with a 1641cc engine running 87mm cylinders, dual 40mm Kadrons, 041 heads, Engle 110 cam, and a single quiet header!


I was building VW engines back when these cars were NEW, and VW NEVER offered 87mm pistons for a 1600cc engine.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russ Wolfe wrote:
Factory Trained wrote:
Glenn wrote:
Don't waste your time with 87 or 88 slip in cylinders. They don't last as long as stock 85.5 and the gain in horse power is minimal.


I disagre about the 87 mm pistons and barrels...the 87s were factory availale in the 60s....yes, they were available from VW!!!

88s are OK if you use the thick wall cylinders from Gene Berg...if they're still available!!! Course, you have to bore the case and heads!

Personally, I run 90.5s...thick cylinder walls!!!

As far as 87s not being worth the effort...they are! As long as you increase the cam and carb(s)!

I maintained 70MPH up the Grapevine on I5 with a 1641cc engine running 87mm cylinders, dual 40mm Kadrons, 041 heads, Engle 110 cam, and a single quiet header!


I was building VW engines back when these cars were NEW, and VW NEVER offered 87mm pistons for a 1600cc engine.


I don't recall them in the '70s either. In fact, their warranty specifically stated that any modifications voided the warranty.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
Factory Trained wrote:
Personally, I run 90.5s...thick cylinder walls!!!


What are 90.5 thick walls? All 90.5 have the same thickness.

And I would never bother with 88s. The "slip ins" are thin and will warp. The "machine ins" are not worth it since you might as well go with 90.5s.


I typed: I run 90.5s...thick cylinder walls!!!

I did nothing more than use three periods as a way of writing a pause...the sentence meant, "I run 90.5s, they have thick cylinder walls"

It's a way of saving typing extra words.

I agree on the machine type 88s...why waste the time when 90.5s are available.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:29 pm    Post subject: 87mm Piston/Cylinder sets from VW...FACTORY PARTS Reply with quote

Quote:
I was building VW engines back when these cars were NEW, and VW NEVER offered 87mm pistons for a 1600cc engine.


You are incorrect! Every VW engine had two oversize piston/cylinder sets available, starting with the 40 HP 1200 (1192cc), then the 1300cc (1285cc), 1500cc (1493cc), 1600cc (1584cc).

The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1200 and 1300 were:
77.5mm and 78mm

The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1500 were:
83.5mm and 84mm

The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1600 were:
86mm and 86.5mm

We referred to the 86.5mm oversize set as 87s...

I've been trying to get you to my online pictures so you can view my references, but I haven't been able to make them readable...when I can I will, maybe I can send you guys PMs with photo attachments??? Let me try!
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This could get interesting. Ive never heard of it either, but Im not an expert.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Factory Trained wrote:
Glenn wrote:
Factory Trained wrote:
Personally, I run 90.5s...thick cylinder walls!!!


What are 90.5 thick walls? All 90.5 have the same thickness.

And I would never bother with 88s. The "slip ins" are thin and will warp. The "machine ins" are not worth it since you might as well go with 90.5s.


I typed: I run 90.5s...thick cylinder walls!!!

I did nothing more than use three periods as a way of writing a pause...the sentence meant, "I run 90.5s, they have thick cylinder walls"

It's a way of saving typing extra words.

I agree on the machine type 88s...why waste the time when 90.5s are available.


I understand the 3 periods. I'm confused about the reference to "thick walls".

You see 88mm come in two different wall thicknesses. One is "Slip In" and they fit in the same hole as a 85.5, then there's "Machine In" which require the case to be opened. For 92s there are the standard 92s which fit in same hole as a 90.5 and then there's the "Thick Walls" which fit in the same hole as a 94mm.

There's only one 90.5, unless you have some one off special cylinders.

.179" = 92mm thickwall
.177" = 88mm machine-in
.163" = 85.5mm
.148" = 90.5mm
.140" = 94mm
.118" = 92mm standard
.114" = 88mm slip-in
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:21 pm    Post subject: Re: 87mm Piston/Cylinder sets from VW...FACTORY PARTS Reply with quote

Factory Trained wrote:
Quote:
I was building VW engines back when these cars were NEW, and VW NEVER offered 87mm pistons for a 1600cc engine.


You are incorrect! Every VW engine had two oversize piston/cylinder sets available, starting with the 40 HP 1200 (1192cc), then the 1300cc (1285cc), 1500cc (1493cc), 1600cc (1584cc).

The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1200 and 1300 were:
77.5mm and 78mm

The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1500 were:
83.5mm and 84mm

The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1600 were:
86mm and 86.5mm

We referred to the 86.5mm oversize set as 87s...

I've been trying to get you to my online pictures so you can view my references, but I haven't been able to make them readable...when I can I will, maybe I can send you guys PMs with photo attachments??? Let me try!



They were listed as 1st and second oversize for the factory rebuilt engines. The factory bored the cylinders on their rebuilts. They were never sold off the shelf by the dealers. It was cheaper just to put a set of standard p/c's back in the engine.
Your without guesswork book is a 70 edition. They are only slightly mentioned in the 71 book I have here. And only that they were used. They were never used in production.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:28 pm    Post subject: Re: 87mm Piston/Cylinder sets from VW...FACTORY PARTS Reply with quote

Factory Trained wrote:
Quote:
I was building VW engines back when these cars were NEW, and VW NEVER offered 87mm pistons for a 1600cc engine.


You are incorrect! Every VW engine had two oversize piston/cylinder sets available, starting with the 40 HP 1200 (1192cc), then the 1300cc (1285cc), 1500cc (1493cc), 1600cc (1584cc).

The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1200 and 1300 were:
77.5mm and 78mm

The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1500 were:
83.5mm and 84mm

The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1600 were:
86mm and 86.5mm

We referred to the 86.5mm oversize set as 87s...

I've been trying to get you to my online pictures so you can view my references, but I haven't been able to make them readable...when I can I will, maybe I can send you guys PMs with photo attachments??? Let me try!


I don't know what "factory" you were trained in, but it sure wasn't the VW factory. Maybe it was The Hoover Co.?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 87mm Piston/Cylinder sets from VW...FACTORY PARTS Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
Factory Trained wrote:
Quote:
I was building VW engines back when these cars were NEW, and VW NEVER offered 87mm pistons for a 1600cc engine.


You are incorrect! Every VW engine had two oversize piston/cylinder sets available, starting with the 40 HP 1200 (1192cc), then the 1300cc (1285cc), 1500cc (1493cc), 1600cc (1584cc).

The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1200 and 1300 were:
77.5mm and 78mm

The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1500 were:
83.5mm and 84mm

The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1600 were:
86mm and 86.5mm

We referred to the 86.5mm oversize set as 87s...

I've been trying to get you to my online pictures so you can view my references, but I haven't been able to make them readable...when I can I will, maybe I can send you guys PMs with photo attachments??? Let me try!


I don't know what "factory" you were trained in, but it sure wasn't the VW factory. Maybe it was The Hoover Co.?


I referenced the 1970 VW Service, Without Guesswork Book for Type 1, 2 and 3.

I attended the following Factory Schools at VW Atlantic:

General I Repair

Front end course

Engine Repairs

If you'd like, and are willing to accept facts, send me your E-mail address and I'll be happy to send you photos of my VW Training Record and the relevant pages from the Without Guesswork Book.

Until then, please be a bit more polite!
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
Factory Trained wrote:
Glenn wrote:
Factory Trained wrote:
Personally, I run 90.5s...thick cylinder walls!!!


What are 90.5 thick walls? All 90.5 have the same thickness.

And I would never bother with 88s. The "slip ins" are thin and will warp. The "machine ins" are not worth it since you might as well go with 90.5s.


I typed: I run 90.5s...thick cylinder walls!!!

I did nothing more than use three periods as a way of writing a pause...the sentence meant, "I run 90.5s, they have thick cylinder walls"

It's a way of saving typing extra words.

I agree on the machine type 88s...why waste the time when 90.5s are available.


I understand the 3 periods. I'm confused about the reference to "thick walls".

You see 88mm come in two different wall thicknesses. One is "Slip In" and they fit in the same hole as a 85.5, then there's "Machine In" which require the case to be opened. For 92s there are the standard 92s which fit in same hole as a 90.5 and then there's the "Thick Walls" which fit in the same hole as a 94mm.

There's only one 90.5, unless you have some one off special cylinders.

.179" = 92mm thickwall
.177" = 88mm machine-in
.163" = 85.5mm
.148" = 90.5mm
.140" = 94mm
.118" = 92mm standard
.114" = 88mm slip-in


I wasn't referring to the 88s...they do come in two wall thicknesses...

I was only stating that 90.5s have thick cylinder walls...the good reason for using them.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:42 pm    Post subject: Re: 87mm Piston/Cylinder sets from VW...FACTORY PARTS Reply with quote

Factory Trained wrote:
I referenced the 1970 VW Service, Without Guesswork Book for Type 1, 2 and 3.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: 87mm Piston/Cylinder sets from VW...FACTORY PARTS Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
Factory Trained wrote:
I referenced the 1970 VW Service, Without Guesswork Book for Type 1, 2 and 3.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Thanks Glenn! Wink


Last edited by BGEE68 on Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:49 pm    Post subject: Re: 87mm Piston/Cylinder sets from VW...FACTORY PARTS Reply with quote

Factory Trained wrote:
Thanks Russ! Wink


It was news to me. I guess you're never too old to learn something new.
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Cast Iron and Aluminum distributors rebuilt since 2000.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:53 pm    Post subject: Re: 87mm Piston/Cylinder sets from VW...FACTORY PARTS Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
Factory Trained wrote:
Thanks Russ! Wink


It was news to me. I guess you're never too old to learn something new.


Thanks again Glenn!!! Smile Smile


Last edited by BGEE68 on Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:11 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 87mm Piston/Cylinder sets from VW...FACTORY PARTS Reply with quote

Factory Trained wrote:
Tram wrote:
Factory Trained wrote:
Tram wrote:
Factory Trained wrote:
Quote:
I was building VW engines back when these cars were NEW, and VW NEVER offered 87mm pistons for a 1600cc engine.


You are incorrect! Every VW engine had two oversize piston/cylinder sets available, starting with the 40 HP 1200 (1192cc), then the 1300cc (1285cc), 1500cc (1493cc), 1600cc (1584cc).

The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1200 and 1300 were:
77.5mm and 78mm

The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1500 were:
83.5mm and 84mm

The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1600 were:
86mm and 86.5mm

We referred to the 86.5mm oversize set as 87s...

I've been trying to get you to my online pictures so you can view my references, but I haven't been able to make them readable...when I can I will, maybe I can send you guys PMs with photo attachments??? Let me try!


I don't know what "factory" you were trained in, but it sure wasn't the VW factory. Maybe it was The Hoover Co.?


I referenced the 1970 VW Service, Without Guesswork Book for Type 1, 2 and 3.

I attended the following Factory Schools at VW Atlantic:

General I Repair

Front end course

Engine Repairs

If you'd like, and are willing to accept facts, send me your E-mail address and I'll be happy to send you photos of my VW Training Record and the relevant pages from the Without Guesswork Book.

Until then, please be a bit more polite!


You join yesterday, and you're lecturing me on forum etiquette? Rolling Eyes

Those who know me will tell you that I AM, in fact, being polite. Laughing


Doesn't matter if I joined yesterday, last month or x number of years ago...I have the training, experience and knowledge to help this forum. That's all I'm trying to do. If 41 years of working on (in dealerships and on my own), modifying and enjoying VWs isn't enough, what is???

If'n your pulling my leg, let me know...I don't know you, so I can only react to your words as they are typed.


Look, what Russ and I are telling you is that VW NEVER SOLD A BOLT ON BIGGER BORE PISTON AND CYLINDER SET FOR THEIR ENGINES... PERIOD. We're not talking about factory crate engine specs. Whenever we overhauled an engine at the dealer, we installed standard P/C sets. It was ALL you could get from the dealer parts counter.
A modification, whether based on a factory crate engine 1st or 2nd oversized or not is still just that... a modification.
If you want to say that you like bigger Ps and Cs in your engines, that's fine. But DON'T try to tell us that it was a factory approved modification that you got at your dealership parts counter when you were overhauling an engine, because it's not true.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like a simple miscommunication.

Let's leave it at that.
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