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What to do with this diesel westy?
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norcalmike
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:46 am    Post subject: What to do with this diesel westy? Reply with quote

Just fell into an 82 Diesel Westy with a cracked block.
Im not sure what to do. Im torn between a Suby 2.2 or 2.5 gas or the very intriguing Suby Turbo Boxer.
I would Love to hear your ideas and experiences.

pics soon
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO installing a Subaru engine into a stock diesel vanagon would be a mistake. A 1Z or AHU VW 1.9TDI engine (or if you're dead set on a gas engine, then even an early 1.8T) will bolt right in using the diesel vanagon parts. If not wanting to deal with the electronics of a TDI install then a mechanical TDI injection pump could be used or an AAZ engine installed. Regardless of which engine is used (Subaru, VW TD or VW gas inline-4) you will need to regear so there is not advantage to the Subaru there.
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strawhouse
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Find a aaz engine and put that into the van, easy install and no electronics.
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An mTDI has the same amount of electronics as an AAZ but gets 15% better fuel economy for the same power. The gearing has to be changed either way so that's a wash.
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norcalmike
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the replies and pms.
my original plan was to stick with diesel. I have always wanted to play with a diesel and even experiment with alt fuels.
I got a little sidetracked thinking of gas suby but I'm straight now.
now I just have to research a good power plant.
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johnnygreenham
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DIESEL!!!! Dancing
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norcalmike
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnnygreenham wrote:
DIESEL!!!! Dancing

tell me about yours
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Dampcamper
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Y'know, you could always stick with a 1.6 NA (provided you will never, ever be in a hurry)...find a running diesel rabbit engine and swap the oil pan and pickup tube (anything else, folks?) from the Vanagon's engine. Beware: early rabbit engines were 1.5 liter, I don't think I'd go with any less power than original, certainly there wasn't that much to begin with.
But I'm for the idea of minimal (like none) engine electronics and simpler mechanicals (I'm retiring and need to do it on the cheap if I'm going to travel), so I'm keeping my 1.6 NA (recently rebuilt) unless/until I can find a 1.9 NA. And not planning on going anywhere in a hurry except to pick up that bigger engine, for which I'll borrow a truck.
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norcalmike
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in no hurry. so far, the simplest engine wins. I did see a 1.6na on craigslist with 130k on it. I am tempted to do a quick fix and see what I got here.
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

norcalmike wrote:
I'm in no hurry. so far, the simplest engine wins. I did see a 1.6na on craigslist with 130k on it. I am tempted to do a quick fix and see what I got here.


The M-TDI route would be an excellent one. It's all mechanical, and aside from the turbocharger, it's as simple and basic as the original engine.

You probably shouldn't waste your time putting a 1.6 diesel back in there. It will be really slow. Your top speed with that engine will be about 55 mph. And any kind of freeway grade will bring you down to 45 mph. Slow and casual is one thing, but being that slow is just unsafe.

D
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AndyBees
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 1.5 VW Diesel Engine was discontinued with the 1980 model!

The 1986 model 1.6 engines have hydraulic valve lifters (maybe some 1985 models). Thus, no need to adjust valves.

Yes, if you go with a 1.9 TDI engine, it is a MUST to go with a later model Vanagon Transmission. Your bell housing will work but you also need to use the input shaft, or have the input shaft from the gasser tranny cut off (seems it's about 22mm longer than the diesel input shaft).

I'm considering converting an '83 air-cooled Vanagon to a 1.6TD in the not too distant future. I have the engine, pan, pump, etc.

I have an '84 Vanagon TDI conversion project in the TDIclub.com that covers many of the topics. http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=276798
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D Clymer wrote:
norcalmike wrote:
I'm in no hurry. so far, the simplest engine wins. I did see a 1.6na on craigslist with 130k on it. I am tempted to do a quick fix and see what I got here.



You probably shouldn't waste your time putting a 1.6 diesel back in there. It will be really slow. Your top speed with that engine will be about 55 mph. And any kind of freeway grade will bring you down to 45 mph. Slow and casual is one thing, but being that slow is just unsafe.

D


Yeah, well, some vehicles do better off the freeway. My first van was a '57 with a 36 HP, top speed of 48 MPH. In the era of muscle cars, cheap gas and high speed limits. For that matter, some of the trucks that I drive nowadays have about the same ballistics as an '82 Diesel Westy. One learns to plan trips so as not to be endangered and hopefully not be too big of a pimple on the backside of Progress. While getting close to 30 MPG.
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norcalmike
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know that the 1.6 is slow. I test drove a caddy diesel years ago. never drove a n/a diesel vw before. I seriously thought it was broken. it was soooooo slooooooow.
I'm more interested in fuel economy and alt fuels rather than power and speed. I have other vehicles for that.
I appreciate the input.
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...and yet... that caddy weighed HALF what a vanagon weighs with the SAME engine.

The 1.9TDI will get as good or better fuel economy than a 1.6 non-turbo with GOBS more power and greater capacity for tuning. As mentioned, if you run a mechanical TDI injection pump the electronics are the same as the 1.6.
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Komissar
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I second the "if you are not in a hurry" approach to this problem Smile , after all, a 1.6 Diesel N/A will be cheap, hassle-free and go anywhere although not very fast, will also climb any gradient in 3rd gear ... or second with the car fully loaded Smile

However, there is one thing you should be concerned about :
early 1.5 and 1.6 VW diesels (those made up to 1983 i think) had serious design issues and were less reliable than the "regular" 1.6 . The 1.5 had a lot in common with the 1.6.
This mainly concerned the cyl. head and their bolts that had a tendency to snap out of thier threads, also from a direct comparison between an early 1.6 head and a later one the early one has less "meat" at the bolt hole.
These engines are usually identified by their 11mm head bolts instead of usual 12mm.

Here are some links to it:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=21948.0

http://volkswagenownersclub.com/vw/showthread.php/30664-11mm-head-bolts



11mm Head bolts are reuseable only when they have the allen fitting. XZN fitting are stretch bolts and not reuseable. However, the issue with 11mm bolts is 100% related to the engagement of the threads - estimates are around 1/2" of actual engagement, in a hole that reaches an inch. If you can use studs they will go much deeper into the block and protect against cracks.


http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=283907

You may be thinking of the 1.5l diesel engine... it was VW's first attempt at the diesel design and had smaller head bolts and a block that tended to crack. Having said that, any 1.5 still on the road today is 30 years old, so not sure it owes anyone much.
The earlier 1.6 engines had 11mm head bolts so they don't hold up as well as the 12mm head bolt later 1.6 engines. Also doesn't help the compression is 23.5 to 1 or so (about 450-500 lbs) if I have remembered the number right.
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norcalmike
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm gonna look into this used 1.6, it's from an 81 truck. if I can get it cheap enough, I'll start there and look into an m-TDI later. my first diesel, other than the 18 wheeler I used to drive as a short lived career.
this will be fun
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I promise this will be my last effort to talk you out of installing a non-turbo 1.6. I would not waste any of my time or money on buying or installing a 1.6 non-turbo. Even if the engine were completely rebuilt and given to me free of charge I would not waste my time installing it in a vanagon. The labor of installing and then consequently removing the engine is significant. The difference in initial cost of even a 1.6TD or a 1.9TD is much less significant to me than the added labor of removing the engine you just installed and installing a different one when you are unhappy with the performance. Again, the caddy that you described as 'sooo slow' had twice as much power to weight.

Dampcamper wrote:
Yeah, well, some vehicles do better off the freeway. My first van was a '57 with a 36 HP, top speed of 48 MPH. In the era of muscle cars, cheap gas and high speed limits. For that matter, some of the trucks that I drive nowadays have about the same ballistics as an '82 Diesel Westy. One learns to plan trips so as not to be endangered and hopefully not be too big of a pimple on the backside of Progress. While getting close to 30 MPG.


Your 36HP had a HIGHER power to weight ratio (0.0144 hp/lb) than the 1.6 non-turbo vanagon (0.0137 hp/lb)... The fuel economy aspect doesn't cut the mustard. As I mentioned before, the 1.9 TDI engines will get as good or better fuel economy than the 1.6 non-turbo.
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norcalmike
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appreciate your input Bro.
This is my hobby. This is fun for me. If it sucks and I take it out for something better, Im ok with that.
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strawhouse
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it makes any difference at all, another reason I changed over to a MTDI as well was the availability of engine parts. With the old 1.6TD and 1.9TD that has been in my Doka the problem was getting simple parts like a water pump or alternator or even gaskets, the year of manufacture on those engines were over 20 years ago and quite a few parts suppliers had to order the stuff in. With the TDI engine I have a 90% chance that whatever I am looking for is in stock. I am not too sure what it is like in your area but up where I am that is the case.... maybe something to look into.
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This will be my last attempt at talking you out of spending time and money on putting a 1.6D in there, too. Very Happy

But just think:

Regular tin-top Vanagon diesel. 48hp and 76 lb/ft of torque.
Curb weight: 3650 lbs.
0-60:41.1 seconds.
Top speed: 65 mph.

Westy diesel: Same power. More aerodynamic drag.
Curb weight: 4250 lbs.
Performance:
0-60: slower
Top speed: slower

At least drive one first and make sure you know just how slow you'll go. I can guarantee you, it will be far worse than you ever, ever imagined.

D
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