Author |
Message |
vanagonjr Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2010 Posts: 3431 Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
|
Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
That pump has the correct pickup tube, but the shaft of the pump is different from the ABA pump and will not work on your engine. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
denwood Samba Member
Joined: July 29, 2012 Posts: 1047 Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada
|
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
Van cafe doesn't list the 82 vanagon diesel oil pump but they did source it for me. I prefer to deal with them. I also sourced a new A3 36mm pump from Techtonics. Both parts were Febi, and both had end play in the .006" range new. Knowing that the oil pump is a very high wear part (sees oil before the filter), and this clearance will only increase, it makes sense to bring this clearance down to .002" or so. The oil pressure results after speak for themselves I think. . I'll post pics of the parts..
You're using the A3 pump bottom end bolted to the 82 vanagon diesel pickup tube assembly to create a hybrid pump. As Andrew points out, the leftover parts create a diesel oil pump that could be used for an upright diesel conversion (using TDI pan) _________________ Cheers,
Dennis Wood
The Grape |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mike Pratola Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2008 Posts: 7 Location: Kennett Square, Pa 19311
|
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:14 am Post subject: oil priming issues |
|
|
I had a similar problem with my I4 aba/1.8 conversion. Pump gear backlash and axial play all checked out within spec. I took the pump to my local machine shop/engine builder who immediatly made the call of a sticking pressure reliefe valve. We took the valve apart, cleaned the bore with a small hone and them wrapped the hone with 1000 grit wet/dry emery paper and polished it and the piston until the piston would slide freely in the bore just by tilting the pick up arm. We weren't having any success re-staking the relef spring end cap so we drilled a hole and pinned it with a cotter pin. Buttoned it all back up and using 15/40 the oil light instantly goes out upon start up, when hot shows about 25# at idle and 50# + at around 3 grand. Hope this helps. _________________ 67 Bug, currently in hibernation
78 Westy, auto and a/c, needs the usual, currently on 'Static Display'
85 Westy. 2l aba/1.8 head, diesel doner hardparts, running work- in- progress |
|
Back to top |
|
|
vanagonjr Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2010 Posts: 3431 Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
|
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
denwood wrote: |
Both parts were Febi, and both had end play in the .006" range new. Knowing that the oil pump is a very high wear part (sees oil before the filter), and this clearance will only increase, it makes sense to bring this clearance down to .002" or so. The oil pressure results after speak for themselves I think. . I'll post pics of the parts..
|
How did you reduce the clearance from .006" to .002"? Not quite following.
The engine I have has about 140K on it. Guess I'll check the pump. _________________ John - 86 Wolfsburg Westfalia "Weekender"
Flint reversed 1.8T W/Passat 5-Speed
LiMBO (late model bus club) www.limbobus.org
LiMBO is on Facebook too! https://www.facebook.com/groups/
FAQ thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=525798 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
|
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
denwood wrote: |
Removing the top plate and gears, I carefully took a few thousands off the new A3 oil pump housing by laying it, machined surface downwards, on a sheet of 320 grit wet/dry paper (supported by a machined flat surface) and wet sanding. This works great as long as you're very careful to apply even pressure with the part always in full contact with the paper. Below is better...in the .002" to .003" area. |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
denwood Samba Member
Joined: July 29, 2012 Posts: 1047 Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada
|
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
As Andrew quoted, you basically remove some material by sanding the pump body as I described, bringing the gears effectively closer to the top plate when it's bolted in place. Machining would be preferable, but wet sanding on a flat surface with even pressure will get you a few thousandths quickly.
It took me three tries (sand, assemble with plastigage, torque cover plate bolts, disassemble, measure) to get to around .003". About 30 minutes. _________________ Cheers,
Dennis Wood
The Grape |
|
Back to top |
|
|
vanagonjr Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2010 Posts: 3431 Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
|
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
First thanks to everyone for this excellent info. I have not yet taken apart my new diesel pump, but I assume I will need a new gasket when I mesh it with the ABA pump body, but where does one purchase the gasket, I have not been able to find a listing for such; are you forced to re-use the old one ....or use only sealant?
I had not planned a new oil pump (providing it measures OK per Bentley), since I have run several (Honda) cars well past 200K and all those were on original pumps, but is it recommended that one just buy a new pump?
My ABA has approx. 140K on it. I had planned to see what the oil pressure is first. _________________ John - 86 Wolfsburg Westfalia "Weekender"
Flint reversed 1.8T W/Passat 5-Speed
LiMBO (late model bus club) www.limbobus.org
LiMBO is on Facebook too! https://www.facebook.com/groups/
FAQ thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=525798 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mike Pratola Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2008 Posts: 7 Location: Kennett Square, Pa 19311
|
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:08 am Post subject: oil priming issues |
|
|
So after a few days of oil pressure / priming bliss, I'm back to square one. Started the van yesterday and it would not prime, showed about 7# on the gauge, the oil pressure light wouldn't go out and the lifters were clacking. Either the pressure relief valve is hanging up again, or the aluminum pump housing is worn and there's too much clearance between it and the pump gears. I'm not buying the ' you gotta run 50 wt ' theory yet, I've seen good oil pressure on 10w-40 as in my earlier post. Either way, I can't trust it in the long run and am going to install a new pump. My question now is has anyone ever tried pressing the pump drive shaft out of the gears and switching them instead of buying two pumps and switching the housings and pick ups? I've got a call into FAS to see what they use, it just seems like a waste to have the leftover parts hanging around, and custom fabricating a pick up tube for a gas engine pump looks cost prohibitive. _________________ 67 Bug, currently in hibernation
78 Westy, auto and a/c, needs the usual, currently on 'Static Display'
85 Westy. 2l aba/1.8 head, diesel doner hardparts, running work- in- progress |
|
Back to top |
|
|
?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
|
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
There are no gaskets between the parts of the oil pump. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mike Pratola Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2008 Posts: 7 Location: Kennett Square, Pa 19311
|
Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:14 pm Post subject: i4 oil pressure problem & fix |
|
|
Just a follow up. I ordered a new Febi oil pump for a diesel engine. With some creative use of fixtures and tools I was able to press the shafts out of the old and new pumps and switch them, so no need to buy the diesel and gas pump and swap parts. As per denwood's suggestion on a previous post, I checked the end clearance and found it in the .004 range, so I disassembled the pump and lapped the housing on a piece of thick glass and 400 grit wet dry until we had .002. Using 15/40 wt, the engine primes instantly, shows 30#s at idle hot and 50#s at cruising speed hot. Out of curiosity I checked the clearance between the gears and the housing on the old pump and it was in the .007 range, the new pump was in the .004 range, so that must be the culprit. On a side note, the Febi pump seems to be a much stouter unit than the OEM, the castings seem thicker and the machine work is nicely finished. Also, my local machine shop/engine builder tells me he never installs a new oil pump in anything until he disassembles it and checks all the clearances, relieve valve operation, and runs it with a drill in a container of oil to make sure it's OK and primed. _________________ 67 Bug, currently in hibernation
78 Westy, auto and a/c, needs the usual, currently on 'Static Display'
85 Westy. 2l aba/1.8 head, diesel doner hardparts, running work- in- progress |
|
Back to top |
|
|
vanagonjr Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2010 Posts: 3431 Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
|
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
OK, we discussed desired cover clearances, I am wondering about desirable backlash. Bentley lists 0.0079" max, I am getting 0.005" on my old ABA pump.
I checked the new diesel pump for comparison: 0.003-0.0035"
While 0.005" is within spec, is it more than what is desirable?
I measured the cover clearance by straight edge and using plastigauge
New diesel pump:
straight edge: 0.004"+ on one gear, 0.002" one the gear with the drive
Plastigauge: .004-.005 one one gear, 0.0025" on the gear with the drive
Old ABA pump:
straight edge: .004"
Plastigaguge:.005"
I'll sand the housing later to lower the clearance. _________________ John - 86 Wolfsburg Westfalia "Weekender"
Flint reversed 1.8T W/Passat 5-Speed
LiMBO (late model bus club) www.limbobus.org
LiMBO is on Facebook too! https://www.facebook.com/groups/
FAQ thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=525798 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
denwood Samba Member
Joined: July 29, 2012 Posts: 1047 Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada
|
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
John, if Bentley spec .008 (max) then .005 shouldn't be a big concern. A few specs out there suggest .002" is what a new pump should be approx. when new.
If your cover/gear clearance is .002/.004 on the new pump, then reducing that clearance may take you to cover contact on one of the gears. So if you do reduce the cover/gear clearance on the new pump, do it carefully! We know this part will likely wear faster than any other component on the engine, so nearing contact (.0005") is probably ok...it will only increase with age. The pump housing is aluminum, the gears steel, so one would expect greater clearance with a hot pump body. I see mention in the performance world of cast pump bodies/steel covers likely for this very reason...better tolerance when hot.
With .002" variance between the pump gears/vs housing, one wonders how flat/true your housing and top cover are. I'd pop the pump gears out and check them as well to see if there is .002 difference.
I towed my Hobie 18" catamaran back from the lake yesterday (with an added two sea kayaks on top) and the oil pressures and temps with 5w30 synthetic stayed very healthy. At 3500 rpm, hot oil pressure was 4.5 BAR. The Mocal oil cooler really performs well under heavier load..picture this, but with two 14" sea kayaks piled on
_________________ Cheers,
Dennis Wood
The Grape |
|
Back to top |
|
|
vanagonjr Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2010 Posts: 3431 Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
|
Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
denwood wrote: |
If your cover/gear clearance is .002/.004 on the new pump, then reducing that clearance may take you to cover contact on one of the gears. So if you do reduce the cover/gear clearance on the new pump, do it carefully!
With .002" variance between the pump gears/vs housing, one wonders how flat/true your housing and top cover are. I'd pop the pump gears out and check them as well to see if there is .002 difference.
|
Sorry, one thing I did not make clear, at all, is for the ABA pump I checked it with the new diesel cover plate / pickup tube. The diesel pump measurements listed were for comparison - that is what a new pump shows.
You are certainly right that the gears will wear their way into the cover, as the new pump shows round scoring on the cover just from shipping! Doesn't seem like the best design for engine health, but I understand that these engines are durable so perhaps I am just tilting at windmills with that observation.
I have an oil temp and pressure gauge to install when the time comes. _________________ John - 86 Wolfsburg Westfalia "Weekender"
Flint reversed 1.8T W/Passat 5-Speed
LiMBO (late model bus club) www.limbobus.org
LiMBO is on Facebook too! https://www.facebook.com/groups/
FAQ thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=525798 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17153 Location: Retired South Florida
|
Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Finally found this thread. I too have the exact same symptoms, but have not pulled the pan yet. Just researching at the moment. It does seem crazy to buy to pumps to end up with one useable one for a temporary project.
Mike, I'd like to know a little more about how you were able to swap the shafts. Did you need to swap both shafts or just the pump drive shaft? I am going to drop the pan and see what the PO had done, but expect based on my reading, a good pump will solve this. mark
edit update. I dropped the pan yesterday on my inline 2.0 and removed the pump. It had .005 to .006 end clearance. I removed the relief valve, but it was not stuck open. Cleaned the bore and the piston and reassembled the relief valve with some royal purple assembly lube. I removed about .003 from the pump housing to get the clearance closer to .002. Put it all back together with fresh oil and started it up. Engine got oil pressure almost immediately when it had zero pressure when I drove it into the garage. Using all the original parts.
The pump seemed to have very little wear and was a hybrid of the diesel and ABA pump. Since this seems to be a reoccurring scenario, I wonder if the problem might be related to mixing parts. Anyhow, the other thing I did was a slight film of gasket eliminator between the two parts. I wanted to ensure that it did seal properly after sanding the case down. If it sucks air, that will affect how it primes as well. I also faced the sump plate and removed a little bit of flashing in the top of the pick-up tube. I'll post back after I have some more time starting and stopping. The van is not for the road at this point, I just need it to be running to move it around. Thank you for the above write ups. mark _________________ ☮️ |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12115 Location: Port Manteau
|
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: i4 oil pressure problem & fix |
|
|
Mike Pratola wrote: |
Just a follow up. I ordered a new Febi oil pump for a diesel engine. With some creative use of fixtures and tools I was able to press the shafts out of the old and new pumps and switch them, so no need to buy the diesel and gas pump and swap parts. As per denwood's suggestion on a previous post, I checked the end clearance and found it in the .004 range, so I disassembled the pump and lapped the housing on a piece of thick glass and 400 grit wet dry until we had .002. Using 15/40 wt, the engine primes instantly, shows 30#s at idle hot and 50#s at cruising speed hot. Out of curiosity I checked the clearance between the gears and the housing on the old pump and it was in the .007 range, the new pump was in the .004 range, so that must be the culprit. On a side note, the Febi pump seems to be a much stouter unit than the OEM, the castings seem thicker and the machine work is nicely finished. Also, my local machine shop/engine builder tells me he never installs a new oil pump in anything until he disassembles it and checks all the clearances, relieve valve operation, and runs it with a drill in a container of oil to make sure it's OK and primed. |
I'm about to do this exact same procedure. I have a new Febi 36mm diesel pump, and I need to swap over the taller gear onto the gas shaft from an RV code 1.8L Golf engine. I assume by taking measurements of the two, I should be able to replicate the gear protusion on the shaft, and then check gear to pump cover lash. Any hidden gotchas? _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
|
Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:15 pm Post subject: Re: Inline Conversion - Oil Priming Issues |
|
|
So in an effort to fix a no pressure at cold start issue, I followed what other folks did and shortened the gear housing a little to reduce axial gear play. Before I did the work, play was about .004-005". After work was done, at most spots, the red Plasti Gauge showed. 002" and the most I saw was about .004" Of note, as i reduced the height of the pump housing, the post for the slave gear started to contact the emery cloth. Since there ended up being less than .002" between that part and the pick up tube plate, I found that careful use of a Dremel bit created a ~ .006" gap at those parts. On the new diesel pump, the end of the drive gear shaft and slave gear post have a much larger gap between them and the plate.
In an effort to mimic the part being mounted at the engine, I installed all 4 bolts on the pump. A piece of 2x4 with a hole for the pump drive shaft, and another piece of wood clamped to that as a brace, aided in holding the work while torquing the fasteners.
While doing the work, I also remeasured gear lash of the used ABA pump using spare feeler gauges cut to size. A .006" gauge is a tight fit and an .007" will not fit. But....
Even though that gear lash is within spec, considering the added length of the diesel pick up tube, and volume of oil, would I be wise to replace the ABA pump?
Any tips on swapping a new drive gear onto the used ABA drive shaft would be welcome!
Neil.
edit
some pics of work
new at install diesel Vanagon oil pump pick up tube face. It had literally minutes of use and though it barely caught my fingernail, there is a manufacturing gouge in lower RH of image near relief valve
plate after 400 grit emery paper, water, on thick piece of glass. Plasti Gauge results also shown.
plasti gauge, wood support/brace
plasti gauge results
slave gear post, Plasti Gauge after material removed to clearance
_________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
|
Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: Inline Conversion - Oil Priming Issues |
|
|
So I'm sure others already know this but some observations playing around with ABA and Diesel pumps.
The ABA drive gears fit the diesel gear housing. In my case, doing so reduced gear lash by ~ .003". The ABA drive shaft fits tighter to the diesel housing so reducing that lateral play reduced the lash. I have no idea how much that lateral play affects gear lash when the pump is installed. I'm pretty sure the recess at drive shaft hole on housing fits the boss (?) at the block.
Also, don't reduce the gear housing any further than .002" Doing so will likely cause the pump to seize ** after fastners are torqued.
In spite of checking clearance with straight edge and Plasti gauge, I decided to try and remove pits on the housing end face. D-oh.
I think I can hand lap the housing to the bottom of the gears. We'll see.
** edit: I installed all 4 bolts while the part was on the bench. Without the engine block to support the housing, it's possible the two larger bolts (with nuts, washers) were stressing the housing and in part, was causing pump to seize. I really doubt it but maybe. Regardless, after turning it by hand many times with just the small bolts installed, it started to turn easily. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
|
Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:14 am Post subject: Re: Inline Conversion - Oil Priming Issues |
|
|
Vanagon Nut wrote: |
Also, don't reduce the gear housing any further than .002" ....
I think I can hand lap the housing to the bottom of the gears. We'll see. |
Valve lapping compound is scarce and pricey around here, the lapping compound could've migrated up onto the gears, so I used double sided tape to attach 320 emery or 180 sandpaper to the bottom of each gear and turned the parts by hand. This was time consuming. The pump eventually turned by hand when assembled, measuring seemed to show that a tiny amount of material was removed from the housing, but with less than .002" axial play (like, "none") and the parts feeling a little too "tight", once they were up to temp, would the gears damage the housing or would the gear ends break in, create axial play, and the pump would work fine? I chose not to find out!
I bought a new pump. edit: Its a Kolbenschmidt
Parts dry, measured with feeler gauges. Gear lash: .006" "go" .007" "no go". Axial play: .002" Play between drive shaft and housing felt greater than same on the new Febi diesel pump. There may still have been oil on the Febi parts.
Though this is a close up shot of the new pump, machining at the slave gear shaft looks sloppy. But, that may not matter. Is the groove on shaft for oiling purposes? Original ABA and Febi diesel pump don't have that groove.
Used ABA pump showing drive gear shaft and oil passage holes. The new Febi diesel oil pump oil passage hole looks the same.
same view point but of the Klienshcmit pump.
The oil passage hole looks smaller. A concern? Or, since the same pump was used on different engines, maybe some require more oil flow? I haven't measured the corresponding opening on the block yet.
_________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
|
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: Inline Conversion - Oil Priming Issues |
|
|
First off, thanks SO much to others who posted here on this topic. Reducing gear axial play seems to have fixed the issue. Refacing the pickup tube didn't hurt either. So far, so good.
With the repaired used ABA pump + new diesel pickup tube installed, pump primed by hand, I let the engine sit overnight. 1st start next day, pressure gauge showed good pressure nearly immediately. I then re installed the blue OE pressure switch. Next day, 1st start, at idle, red light blinked twice before shutting off. It appears oil leaked out of the head while swapping in the OE oil switch. I assume that caused the red light behaviour.
The head was (is) used, it had at least one set of damaged threads (e.g. for coolant flange) so even though the pressure switch threaded in just fine, I'll need to watch for any leaks at pressure switch and head. edit: I'd "constantly" kept checking that union by hand and didn't not feel any leaks. Yesterday, I saw a patch of oil on cardboard on ground beneath the head. I hadn't noticed or seen that prior.
The new pump had a questionable quality at the blind M6 bolt hole. Manufacturer metal shards were still in the hole and the bolt did not turn easily at that hole even after shards were cleaned out. As noted, gear lash appeared to be the same as on the used pump I re installed. There was a yellow paint mark on one of the M6 bolt heads. I can't recall if it was at the bolt at blind hole. I'm sure the pump works but it may be relegated to my 15º ABA as a spare. (though i'd guess something like the con rod bearings or piston skirts would wear out before the pump)
I measured the oil passage hole in the ABA block. Its relatively small so the smaller opening in the Kolbenschmidt pump is likely a non issue.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|