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rebel1968
Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2012
Posts: 147
Location: Sydney Australia
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 Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| I just sprayed my beam with chassis paint,looks sweet |
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Yabbadubbadoo
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2012
Posts: 914
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:10 am Post subject: |
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Clatter I was under the impression that once bakelite has been thermoset in it's initial molding process you can cook it again (like in a powdercoat oven) without worrying about it re-melting.
Anyhow, you did shiteload of work cutting that beam housing. Were you trying to find beams with good bushings? I can't completely work out why you did the old chop chop on the beam housing. |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: |
Clatter- that was a Kasan Red '72, wasn't it? You sure know how to hurt a guy...  No, seriously... try to find another one.
Sorry, but that was a complete utter dick move and post... Hitler was way more personable than I'll ever be for one, and I fail to see how this promotes the preservation of Type 3s for two. |
HAHAHAHAHAA!!
I cut one up two years ago...remember that, Tram? |
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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Welp, when my first beam went in for powder-coat, it melted the bakelite.
So then I got the bushings out of it and cleaned it up.
Then finally got a beam with good bushings and cut them out and put them in the powder coated beam.
I also had another, that had been the victim of a lowering job, that was messed up (too sloppy). I cut it up, and gave it to the coater to try and work out how to not kill the bushes. He did a lower temp for longer, and it worked - the bakelite didn't melt. I tried to use this technique to powder-coat a set of tie-rod ends, but that didn't work, as tie-rod ends have a softer plastic that melts easily. Sucks.
I LOVE MY SAWZALL!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!
CUT!! CUT!!! CUUUT!!!!!
AAAIIIGHHRRRGHHH!!!!
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Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Well, well -- It's a deep subject.
Brent has been a fan of Masterseries for a while, and I have liked powder-coat forever.
So we had this discussion...
Paint is easier to work with, touch-up-able, cheaper, and doesn't require high heat.
My response was that powder was better in the end, because the baked-on finish was more resistant to dings and chips.
Now, I'm not so sure... powder is proving scratch-able and soft, not as resistant to sunlight, and you can't go over bodyworking (Bondo), or over seam seal - which is a key part of doing a floor-pan, right?
So, I am coming around to seeing this with new eyes.
It always seemed to me that the paint crowd was always just trying to save costs and cut corners.
We won't even go into the brush-your-POR15-on crowd, as they have given this bad image to the chassis process.
I'll even give a couple of eye-rolls to them... 
So anyways, as a test, Brent gave me a backing plate that he had done correctly; slag blasted, etched, and laid on pretty with Masterseries.
I had this extra bracket done locally with gloss black.
the two of them got left outside in the dirt for two years now.
Gave them both a big scratch to see how they prevent peeling.
I regularly go and give them a kick or two, and pee on them.
This discussion made me go out right now, dig them up, clean and photograph.
Now, the Masterseries is semi-gloss, and the powder is gloss, but still...
Looks like the Masterseries is hanging tougher.
It has fewer scratches.
Looks like Brent is right.
I'm a stubborn old man and set in my ways, but i'll admit when you kids come up with something new...
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Bus Motor Build
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Nate M.
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2003
Posts: 1306
Location: Anacortes, WA U.S.A.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Clatter wrote: |
I LOVE MY SAWZALL!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!
CUT!! CUT!!! CUUUT!!!!!
AAAIIIGHHRRRGHHH!!!!
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Much to the chagrin of others on here, I love a good sawzall thread/post. It kind of gives you the feeling that you got-away with something that maybe you "shouldn't have" and it felt GOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!!
Continue. . . 
_________________
Regards,
Nate M.
Squarsche build
Heavy Metal Affliction feature
For heaven's sake, put a type4 and a Porsche 5-speed in there. . . It's the right thing to do!! |
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W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4917
Location: Southern AB
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| powder is proving scratch-able and soft, not as resistant to sunlight, and you can't go over bodyworking (Bondo), or over seam seal - which is a key part of doing a floor-pan, right? |
well that depends on what kind of powder you are having applied, they are different just like paint.
Not all powders are created equal. Some chemistries perform better than others against certain environmental criteria. So, it’s important to know how the product will ultimately be used before selecting the type of powder for application.
Epoxy
Epoxy coatings provide a smooth, uniform appearance. They also offer excellent adhesion and exhibit a strong resistance to chemicals and corrosion. However, epoxies can only withstand minimal UV exposure. Over-exposure to UV rays can lead to loss of gloss as well as chalking of the finished product. As a result, epoxy powders are generally used for interior-based products.
Polyester
Polyester powders offer strong adhesion properties and excellent gloss retention when exposed to UV elements. Due to their strong weathering characteristics and lower chemical resistance, polyester powders are typically found on fencing, outdoor decorative items as well as lawn and garden furniture.
Nylon
Nylon powders are generally used as a protective coating. They offer strong resistance to a wide range of solvents and oils, as well as damage caused by impact and abrasion. In most cases, a primer is used in the coating process to help achieve a high level of performance.
Polyurethane
Polyurethane powders are generally used for both decorative and functional products that have exterior exposure. Polyurethane's have very strong weatherability characteristics. They offer excellent anti-corrosion performance and are resistant to humidity and a range of chemicals and oils.
Hybrid
Hybrid powders are blends of epoxy and polyester resins. As such, they offer excellent mechanical properties and very good chemical and corrosion resistance. While these coatings provide excellent flexibility and smoothness, they are generally not recommended in applications where weather resistance is critical. Hybrids are typically used for indoor applications.
You can go over bodywork if you use filler like Lab Metal, or if you can't get that, JB Weld is a nice filler that can be powder coated. You may have to hot flock the area if the filler is thick.
Seam sealer I would put over the paint instead of having the rust issues like the stock stuff did.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php
1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
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W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4917
Location: Southern AB
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Welp, when my first beam went in for powder-coat, it melted the bakelite.
So then I got the bushings out of it and cleaned it up.
Then finally got a beam with good bushings and cut them out and put them in the powder coated beam.
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what you are referring to as bakelite is a Phenolic canvas based industrial laminate which works well for bushings but is only good for temperatures up to 120C or 248F. Most standard powders are cooked at 400F for 20 minutes after the part has reached 400F and the powder has flowed out. Which for thick items can mean 40-60 minutes in the oven.
Standard ball bearings are only dimensionally stable to 250F, so even submitting a steel bearing to those kinds of temps will significantly shorten it's life, your needle bearings are in the same boat.
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php
1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
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Yabbadubbadoo
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2012
Posts: 914
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Not sure about the USA but here in Aus good front beams are starting to get rare. There's good karma to be had from reconditioning a beam instead of cherry picking the tight ones and discarding the mushy ones. One day they'll be as rare as rocking horse sh#t and then the almighty parts brokers will sell their stockpiles at the top of the market in exchange for your first born child and a hefty loan but only if you have a good karma credit rating. So put the reciprocating saws away. Get your faces off the classifieds and start reconditioning your way to front beam enlightenment lest you find yourself wandering down the murky highway of regret and narrowed bug beams. |
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vlad01
Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010
Posts: 3069
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Clatter wrote: |
Rebel1968,
Thanks for the kudos,
The man appreciates a fastback; gotta respect that.
Tram,
You not know who you messim wit...
My style is refal!
vlad,
The fasteners didn't go out for heat treat. Just coating. |
ok, just be careful. The springs and bolts become brittle.
its too late now anyway. you have a 4 hr window after the plating for most high tensile steel before permanent damage is done at a molecular level.
That said, most of it won't show problems. But any suspension/braking parts make from hi tensile or hardened alloy steel is a damn scary risk to take.
looks go though  |
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Brent
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2010
Posts: 1614
Location: San Tan Valley, AZ
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| Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| vlad01 wrote: |
| Clatter wrote: |
Rebel1968,
Thanks for the kudos,
The man appreciates a fastback; gotta respect that.
Tram,
You not know who you messim wit...
My style is refal!
vlad,
The fasteners didn't go out for heat treat. Just coating. |
ok, just be careful. The springs and bolts become brittle.
its too late now anyway. you have a 4 hr window after the plating for most high tensile steel before permanent damage is done at a molecular level.
That said, most of it won't show problems. But any suspension/braking parts make from hi tensile or hardened alloy steel is a damn scary risk to take.
looks go though |
The doctor has spoken!
I call BS on 'damage at a molecular level'. Carbon steel needs to get really effing hot for a phase change, 950F (ish) IIRC. A plating bath doesn't even get close to where it would affect the temper of steel.
I'm feeling like a hater here so...
Vlad, you have no idea what you're talking about. But feel free to edumacate me with your ignorance, it's fun reading your posts of how to do things better.
-break-
The old powder vs. paint discussion...
There will never be an agreement between the two sides.
Since you're peeing on them we know they're getting a good dose of all the toxins that also wreck havoc on human livers. I'm happy to see the Masterseries has held up so well.
Especially since corrosion hasn't spread past the gouge.
But then again, that backing plate should never be used due to the damage at the molecular level.
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69 Fastback Build
Berg5 Build |
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vlad01
Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010
Posts: 3069
Location: Australia
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Brent
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2010
Posts: 1614
Location: San Tan Valley, AZ
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| Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:25 am Post subject: |
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Now that's just cold.
I know the facts Vlad, believe it or not I actually have a Masters in Mech Eng with a Materials Science emphasis. My education is not based on wikipedia and random internet articles.
You need to look at the tensile and yield strength where hydrogen embrittlement becomes a problem. This is a VW, not a space shuttle. 10.9 bolts are well below the threshold where there would be any issues. 10.9 or even 12.9 fasteners new are readily available. Do you really believe all the heat treat/quench/temper is done post plating? I don't think so.
Please name one documented failure of a VW fastener/bolt that was re-plated.
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22407
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| Brent wrote: |
The old powder vs. paint discussion...
There will never be an agreement between the two sides. |
Agreed. I like painting, because it's easier to work with. I also like using epoxy primer before painting too, because epoxy alone isn't UV stable.
I've done my own testing with epoxy primers (been using them since 1990), so I know what I can and can't get away with.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Yabbadubbadoo
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2012
Posts: 914
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| Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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May I present a quick summary of the two debates going on here?
http://i.imgur.com/naDyjdu.gif
Actually it's a summary of every Internet debate. |
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vlad01
Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010
Posts: 3069
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Brent wrote: |
Now that's just cold.
I know the facts Vlad, believe it or not I actually have a Masters in Mech Eng with a Materials Science emphasis. My education is not based on wikipedia and random internet articles.
You need to look at the tensile and yield strength where hydrogen embrittlement becomes a problem. This is a VW, not a space shuttle. 10.9 bolts are well below the threshold where there would be any issues. 10.9 or even 12.9 fasteners new are readily available. Do you really believe all the heat treat/quench/temper is done post plating? I don't think so.
Please name one documented failure of a VW fastener/bolt that was re-plated. |
No they are heat treated to only about 190ºc for a number of hours depending on grade of steel to bake the hydrogen out of the grain in the steel.
I am in shock that you claim you did all these "degrees" and not know or take this seriously?
If you ever notice that all cars use 8.8 and 10.9 and not 12.9?
Well 2 reasons and posibly 3? 12.9 is more brittle by nature and doesn't take shock loads as good as lower grades even though it is higher tensile. 2ndly its way more susceptible to embrittlment. 3? cost? not required for most applications?
space shuttle hahaha  your vw will no doubt be more dangerous.
you don't need to fly to die. Funny how you go all crazy and attack when I am just giving a heads up to the OP on a potential safety risk. |
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vlad01
Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010
Posts: 3069
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| Brent wrote: |
The old powder vs. paint discussion...
There will never be an agreement between the two sides. |
Agreed. I like painting, because it's easier to work with. I also like using epoxy primer before painting too, because epoxy alone isn't UV stable.
I've done my own testing with epoxy primers (been using them since 1990), so I know what I can and can't get away with. |
I like paint too.
to the OP
If you only going to use silver or black or white and want powder coat finish. you can try rust bullet. Its way better protection and durability than powder but has the same but I would call it a better finish.
Its awesome. I just started using it and I can't recommend it enough. |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22407
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Nate M. wrote: |
| Clatter wrote: |
I LOVE MY SAWZALL!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!
CUT!! CUT!!! CUUUT!!!!!
AAAIIIGHHRRRGHHH!!!!
|
Much to the chagrin of others on here, I love a good sawzall thread/post. It kind of gives you the feeling that you got-away with something that maybe you "shouldn't have" and it felt GOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!!
Continue. . . |
Agreed. There's nothing like taking a sawzall to something that's whole, and turning it into multiple pieces. I think gawd invented the sawzall to make real men happy cutting something that shouldn't have been cut before. They're so cool and useful.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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vlad,
I sent my fasteners to these guys;
http://precisionmetalfinishing.net/
While I thank you for your concern,
I somehow feel that they are qualified to perform this task.
While your knowledge of this particular subject actually may exceed theirs,
You will have a hard time convincing me so.
Sorry.
Re; Sawzall.
Stay tuned, gentlemen, you have seen but a fraction of the Sawzall carnage to be revealed!
I can understand how people like Yabbadubba are concerned when confronted with this grim reality.
Fact is, that this will remain this way for some time here.
Why?
Because type 3 people are cheap.
I have tried to give away complete cars three times, about 10 years ago, and nobody would take them. Two of these I had to pay for them to take, (crusher) even doing my own hauling. Nobody on Craigslist, or this fine site wanted any of the parts. Zip. None. Zero.
The Square shown earlier, I listed everything. The only thing that sold was the rear brake assemblies. Oh, there was plenty of time wasted with strokers who wanted to send e-mails or stand me up, but nobody with a dollar to spend. The only reason the brakes sold was because the owner wanted them for a bug!
Actually, before I realized the beams I already had were no Bueno, I tried to get rid of the one from that very same square shown earlier. About three years ago. No takers. I left it in the front yard for some strokes who claimed to be willing to haul it away for free, as I didn't want to miss them. Finally, when the neighbors complained, and I was tired of looking at the junkyard in my back yard I called the scrapper. They came.
Then, three years later, I ended up driving hours and spending over $100 to get an identical beam.
Real estate is expensive here. Type 3 people are cheap.
These things piss me off, and helps fuel my LOVE for the Sawzall!!!
HAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!!
W1K1,
Which of the powders you listed would be best for the suspension/pan parts of our cars here?
Do you have a link to your favorite brand/supplier?
Getting off on a jag here; trying to keep us on task ain't easy.
What with the Sawzalling, fasteners and now coating, we are going to get off track for sure. Good stuff, though...
So far we are up to about two years ago. Will get some more pics loaded hopefully tonight.
Thanks for the input, gentlemen, it is appreciated.
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Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:03 am Post subject: |
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OK,
Got some more pics loaded up.
This is all front end stuff, and a bunch of big pics,
So I hope our dial-up friends are OK,
And the rest of you don't get bored with these petty details....
Ssoooo, nobody was wondering about the rusty spindle?
Nobody?
Aawww, come ON! Bert's spindles are the greatest thing since sliced bread,
And don't anyone think I'm bagging on them,
But this is how one of them showed up.
Bert sent me another, and since shipping back a dead part is so stiff, I kept it as a trophy.
So if anyone gets these make sure to check for this:
They then got sent to Lanner at VdubEngineering for a set of Brembo 944T mount brackets and came back like this:
There is some variation in bearings, so this ended up a little too tight for my tastes:
So they got clearanced:
And, of course, coated...
It was quite a bit of work making certain that the powder was not between the adaptors and the spindle, under the washers, etc, and all still looks right even up close.
Any of you guys have a set of these check these threads.
Mine were a bit wonky, can't figure out why they are kind of flattened on one side,
But regardless, check them.
Mine went together with a chasing of the threads...
Again, hope Bert or anyone else doesn't think I'm baggin on his spindles or anything. They are top notch. Here they are next to the stockers for reference.
About now a cart was built out of some old 4x4s I had lying around.
This is just started. It got gussets and casters and..... You'll see more of it finished. The main goal was to have it work for both a floorpan and a body if need be. the angled thingie un-bolts for use with a pan.
Here's the cart in use; mocking up the front end. Notice all of the spot-welded seams have been end-ground and stitch-welded (TIG) all the way around. Also notice the tow-bar brackets, they use a pin so the tow-bar doesn't chew the beam. And, finally, the Whiteline sway bar mounting. It was hoakey. Evidently they hadn't have vlad to give then any engineering advice on it's construction....Notice the huge U-bolt that previously was to go around behind the beam. I have since fabbed up the mount brackets that are welded to the beam mounting clamps. This will eliminate the U-bolt, and allow the sway to bolt on with er, bolts, like the one in the rear of the photo. Also, have since eliminated the two stacked steel spacer-plates with a billet block made for the occasion.
Lightweight... for racing.... 
Another view:
The janky U-bolt down-rod attachment to the upper trailing arm was solved by welding on a threaded mount, then using a couple of heims to go down from it to the swaybar. Got the heims from the Chassis Shop, don't have a pic of them, but you can see the welded-on threaded section toward the top of the arm on the right...
A little aside - got to get some fresh grease in them tie-rod ends - 40 year old grease gets crusty.
Squirt Squirt
Goodies from powder coating,
There's a set of Lanner's super-duty tie-rods in there too:
Front end up on another cart for assembly.
Getting there:
So, that's about how the beam looks right now, waiting for me to finish up the pan and sub-frame. More on that later.
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