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My first 2332 build. HELP!
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db69
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:12 am    Post subject: My first 2332 build. HELP! Reply with quote

I have built a stock 1600dp with great results but now I want a motor that will RUN!!! My goal is 200hp ish lots of low end torque and keep pulling through 6000rpm. It's going in a stock 69 beetle. Here is what I've come up with so far any suggestions would be greatly appreciated as I am going on what I have read here and hot Vw,s and have no experience around to tap into.
84 mm 4340 crank
94 mm B AA p&c's,
Bugpack small wedgeports 42 x 37.5 heads
1.4 rockers
5.4 hbeam rods (still up for debate)
Empi 48IDA,s w/3rd prog hole from drd
Fk8 cam
Straight cut cam gear
Anybody see anything I should steer clear of or that won't work well together or that I just won't achieve my goal with.
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madmike
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going to need a deep sump,I use a 4 qt Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll recommend an FK10 over the 8. What cr are you going to run?
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db69
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking 9-9.5 cr I want to run pump gas will that work w/ fk10?
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db69
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks madmike a deep sump is definitely in the plan along with an external oil cooler and fan with thermostat. Also a magnaspark 2016 electronic programable distributor. The main stump in the road for me now is rod length I've heard 5.325" 5.4" and 5.5" I don't want to have to clearance my pistons with short rods and I don't want to have to cut my car for long rods can I have my cake and eat it too with the 5.4" rods?
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esde
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just assembled an engine w 84 crank and 5.5" rods, the engine is .16" wider than stock. The cylinder height on 94's is a bit different than the 90.5's I used so I would expect you to end up a little wider. Of course this doesn't account for how much you flycut the heads, or deck the case, just a rough idea of whats in store. I'd go 5.4 if you could to keep it close to stock width
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db69
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like I'm going to go with 5.4 rods unless somebody can talk me out of it. I looked up the fk10 and it sounds like what I want is it drive able in traffic? I just don't want to have to pull out at 5k rpm. It's not like that is it?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may not need that external cooler. I am running about the same engine and never have a heat issue. Just sayin' you might save the couple hundred and can always put it on there later if needed. If you do run the cooler, be sure to get a sandwich adapter as I had problems with oil not coming up to temp in a timely manner.
for what its worth, I have the 125 cam in mine and its very peaky. the car just wants you to put your foot in it. Its seen 7000 rpm but around town I'm shifting at 5300 - 5800 as there is just so much power with the next gear, I see no reason to wind it up. The 7000 was my body man driving it. He told me "I only wrung it to 6300 or so". I then reached in and flipped the tattle tale recall on the tach and gave him that look of, "really"? hmmm....
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

5.5 rodswould be the shortest I would use.,should be no problem putting in car.you will be happy with fk 8. 9.5~10 cr should put a smile on your face.you will probably need about 63cc chambers.
dont forget about the exhaust.1 5/8" merged header,no heater boxes!!
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MURZI
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A fk10 is perfectly drivable in a large cc engine. I have built two engines recently, one with a fk10 and the other with the XR310 Steve Long cam and the XR310 seems less peaky, quieter, and still will hit 7800 rpm. I doubt either hit the 200hp mark. If you want 200hp spend the dough on some large heads. 44x38 and at least 215-230 cfm capability.

The fk44 is another choice as it drives great down low and has tons of torque. I have it in my own 2276.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the engine is snappier with 5.325" rods, but it may have piston skirt clearancing to complete the build. I'd also suggest IDFs/DRLAs instead of IDAs, unless the "look" is something you must have.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All my street engine 2332s get 5.5 rods. They really aren't that much wider than stock. I've used 48IDFs and they make great power and are much easier to work on in the car than IDAs. Even with 5.6 rods my race engine is only 8mm wider than stock.

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db69
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys it's great to hear how things work in the real world. I was skeptical of the 44 x 37 heads because of the lack of material between the valves how long will a head like that last given it's only going to be driven on weekends? I know I'm all over the place here but ther are so many questions! What kind of fitting would be involved with the exhaust and 5.4 rods
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

esde wrote:
I'd go 5.4 if you could to keep it close to stock width


Wouldn't 5.4 inch rods cause side loading of the pistons on this engine.
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db69
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have also heard that argument but John says 5.325" works so in theory wouldn't 5.4 be better?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd throw 5.5 rods and call it a day. Your 69's engine compartment will have ample room.

I strongly suggest sending out your case and get the lifter bores sleeved (send them a lifter to match the bore). this will reduce any chances of wobbling your lifter bores. Also it'd give you a piece of mind that your lifter has proper clearance to work in sync with the radius of your lifter head (lifter should spin as it should properly when things are within spec)

stock gearing in your 69? fk10 should work well but if you go fk8 it'll pull to 6000rpms but potentially overall pep througout the rpm range. You never indicated what venturi size you'll be using in your carbs. Your airpump sucks from the airhorn of the carb right upto the back of your intake valve and beyond. I see no need to go bigger than an fk10 bumpstick. However you will have a decent 2332cc volume and decent flowing heads so you can take advantage of a cb2289 cam(similar web 86c) and go higher in the rpm window.

Most cases you get your peak hp as you rev to the limitation of your airpump's max efficiency. bigger ports with bigger duration cams will "potentially" improve your HP at higher rpms. Your volume of the engine still doesn't change so this is where you hope you heads gives you great volumetric efficiency. Since your indicating a 6000 rpm range your just killing higher HP numbers going with a smaller cam.

I'd probably guess your going to be possibly close to your 200hp mark but realistically I'd set your goals more conservative if your thinking of shifting at the 6grand rpm range.

I've been out of the loop a bit. dont buy cheap cast straight gears. make sure they are billet.....unless you want to shatter/grenade a cast cheap gear.

building an engine is selecting certain parts for a specific application. Choosing a head is equally as important as selecting the cam to pair it with. a camshaft is almost like "ordering " your desired rpms range. That gives you a basic breathing window. If you want to shift at 6000 go with and fk8 or fk10. If you want to rev higher then select a larger cam like cb2289. If you go with a bigger bumpstick you have to make sure other components "up the chain" will support the potential "more flow". As you get larger cams you'd want to ramp up your c/r to compensate for the sloppier dynamic compression at low rpms with bigger duration cams..

As you can see its a balancing act.......

If you want to make your life easier buy a clearanced camshaft. You'll have to massage the components as you assemble your engine. Clearancing the case is a chore but you gotta do whatcha gotta do.....

Just remember that if you rev very high this necessarily doesn't mean you'll make more HP. CFM measurement of a head can either be done with or without manifolds. This is where massaged match ported manifolds will make a difference vs poorly matched manifolds. CFM numbers is NOT the end all be all.

If you go with an fk 46 cam or smaller its a rampy arrow head bumpstick that'll be a noisy bastard. Brutal on the head of your lifter...therefore abusive to your lifter bores (side load) due to fast accelerating/decelerating valve movement.

I ran 11.90s with a milder ramped cam using premium gas. I'm currently running the fk46 and its torquey aswell as noisy. I can snap my neck with either cam combo but more so with the fk46.

isn't this fun??? LOL!!
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db69
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOW! That's a lot thanks Alan. As for venturri size we'll that's another area open for suggestions. I really want to keep the compression down where I can run pump gas what size vents would you suggest with 42 vs 44 intake valve heads. I think the fk10 is a good cam for me and the 200hp is also negotiable I would like to be as close to 200 without sacrificing driveability as I can get. I've seen cars at the shows that struggle to idle and have to lurch and bounce up and down at low speed. I don't want to fight it to keep it moving like those guys it's not a blown dragster. It has a stock irs out of a 73 super beetle in it. I am thinking 48 idf' s now due to the above comments. Remember this is my first big motor I want to keep it as simple as possible and still haul butt! Any venturri suggestions?
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madmike
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey db69, ever think about the W120 ? easy on the valve train and pulls pass 6k depending on the heads and I've use 5.325 rods and clearancing piston skirts is easy too Wink 38 vents in the IDF's This combo will haul ass, and spank any production car in the 1/8th mile Cool
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I mocked up porsche length rods, and AA pistons 90.5 pistons, to my 84mm crank, the skirts just cleared the crank counterweights. These were slipper skirt style pitons, with the full skirt style you would probably have interference. It might depend on the size of the crank counterweights too
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db69
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

madmike wrote:
Hey db69, ever think about the W120 ? easy on the valve train and pulls pass 6k depending on the heads and I've use 5.325 rods and clearancing piston skirts is easy too Wink 38 vents in the IDF's This combo will haul ass, and spank any production car in the 1/8th mile Cool




When clearancing the skirts I assume you would want to remove the same amount from each piston and make sure they all weigh the same? Is that all there is to it? And would someone care to explain the difference in Ida vs idf carbs. It's my understanding that Ida's are basically either on or off type of carb for racing applications but with the third progression hole they are driveable. Most of the HO engines I've read about are using the Ida. But when I ask anyone about carbs they say run idf?
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