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Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please!
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goffoz
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waldi wrote:

But there is one thing to think about. If u drive offroad with trees around, they break easy. Sure also yours. I thought about a round metal in front of the shape clewed to the body.

No problems so far, it protrudes less than the mirrors folded.
The scoop is formed from 0.9mm. thick Aluminum, there is a internal support structure that deflects air down the pillar...very ridgid
The version I'm making now is anchored to the body thru the stock vent mounting points..no drilling required Very Happy
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dkoesyncro
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:39 pm    Post subject: up from the dead Reply with quote

The talk and thought of intercoolers has been on my mind alot lately! My latest thought has been to tuck a renault intercooler up into the d pillar. http://www.forgemotorsport.co.uk/userfiles/images/...cooler.jpg a
I thought louvering the d pillar similar to the splitties and putting a puller fan on would produce good intake temps.

The saab looks to be a good fit for those who have the outlet/inlets on the same side. I have the opposite thing happening here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=1229550

you see the turbo far left and TB far right. I have a fmic that I was going to put behind the bumper and this would allow less than 2ft of pipe. My thoughts w/ this is heat soak from it being close to exhaust piping and the fact that its the back of the van; no airflow! Even a fan would just be pushing or pulling hot stale air giving its location.

I am hell bent to stay w/ an air to air intercooler once given the complexities of how to make it work i wont have to worry about component failures as a water to air intercooler.

thanks for any help!
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Gizmoman
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appreciate the simplicity of an air to air unit but the efficiency of water to air is hard to beat. I installed a huge cooler and have no fan at all. My temps are 10 degrees over ambient most of the time. There is a small plastic tank under the back seat (cheap washer fluid reservoir) which I use to easily fill the system and I have a bleeder valve inserted in the highest spot in the plumbing.

I also feel that the power plant in our vans is nearly always getting pushed to it's limits so the comment about drag racing may actually be more appropriate than you may think. A lot of non van mechanics/drivers don't realize the severity of the application, but if you relate your van to most other cars you own, the van gets worked much harder.

Here is my set-up

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lloydy
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll agree with you and say the charge cooler is overall better, in that the average temps are slightly lower. But, the intercooler on mine is more than adequate. I know its now winter... but my IAT's are on average 35degc, summer was about 10c higher. Totally fine for the engine, way within any parameters.
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gizmoman, that is some pretty custom stuff you have there.
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Gizmoman
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obviously this is one of those" best for you is best". Everyone has different opinions and needs and if the outcome brings satisfaction, then it's all good.

My biggest reason for tossing in the photos was to add to the variables. If a person is willing to fab a new intake (not as tough as it seems), very short charge piping is doable. If an air to air unit is your preference, it can be put in the same place as the WAIC I posted.

I originally had a much smaller radiator and fan. It was noisy and not nearly as efficient as the much larger unit I have now. Besides, it makes no noise at all.
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82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th

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dkoesyncro
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gizmoman,

I like your install and the intake is nice. I am now thinking of doing an awic in the rear bumper like I had planned w/ the aaic. Your plumbing seems to be clean and non intrusive. I really wanted to keep my charge piping short.

Has or is it possible to tap off coolant system instead of a dedicated cooling system. Or does this increase a chance of heat soak since its engine coolant and probably a lot warmer?
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Gizmoman
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your doing a WAIC, it needs to be a separate system entirely.
The whole object is to have air that's as cold as possible. Using your engine water would get the air temp to 180+ - not the effect your after.

Cold air has more molecules in it and makes the explosion of gas or diesel much stronger. The turbo compresses the air which warms it up so the colder it is going in the better off you will be.
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Oversize Spare rack - stock location https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2169071
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markd89
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gizmoman,

What dimensions are the radiator you're using for the system? Where did you get it?

I'm surprised about the great performance you're seeing, given that the radiator is lying flat with no ducting. I'd think the airflow would be pretty minimal.

I'm running a TDI in my 78 bus with an A2W system and an under-bus radiator slanted at an angle. At sustained speed/hills, I'm still seeing IAT at ambient+45* or so...

Thanks!
Mark
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Gizmoman
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frozen Boost - Here's a link to the unit I installed.
https://www.frozenboost.com/water-to-air-heat-exch...b34ebb2732
They make great stuff at fair prices

I was worried about air flow as well but it seems fine. If you have enough cooling area (large exchanger), air flow isn't as important.
I had made a smaller elaborate unit with a fan and shroud but never could get it to stay below 30-40F above ambient and as I mentioned, the fan was very loud. It was obviously too small as it would heat soak fairly quickly. This larger one stays nice and cool. I had planned on finding a place for it in the nose but it would have been a real hassle. Now I'm glad I didn't do all the extra work it would have entailed.

I ran 3/4" hoses most of the way necking down to 5/8 as I entered the intercooler (also Frozen Boost). FWIW, in my opinion, I see no reason to add a thermo switch to turn on a fan for a system that wants to be as cool as possible, as much as possible. Very Happy
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Oversize Spare rack - stock location https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2169071
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markd89
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gizmoman wrote:
Frozen Boost - Here's a link to the unit I installed.
https://www.frozenboost.com/water-to-air-heat-exch...b34ebb2732
They make great stuff at fair prices

I was worried about air flow as well but it seems fine. If you have enough cooling area (large exchanger), air flow isn't as important.
I had made a smaller elaborate unit with a fan and shroud but never could get it to stay below 30-40F above ambient and as I mentioned, the fan was very loud. It was obviously too small as it would heat soak fairly quickly. This larger one stays nice and cool. I had planned on finding a place for it in the nose but it would have been a real hassle. Now I'm glad I didn't do all the extra work it would have entailed.

I ran 3/4" hoses most of the way necking down to 5/8 as I entered the intercooler (also Frozen Boost). FWIW, in my opinion, I see no reason to add a thermo switch to turn on a fan for a system that wants to be as cool as possible, as much as possible. Very Happy


Interesting. I'm not sure I understand all of this but perhaps writing it out, you (or someone else) may see something.

Your surface area is 182 square inches. I'm also using one of their radiators but mine is 12" * 24" * 1" thick which which is 288 square inches. One might expect mine to have better performance than yours with more surface area.

Including the depth, yours at 3.5" and mine at 1" there's a big difference. You have 637 cu" of volume and I have only 288 cu". Perhaps that accounts for the performance difference. I would have expected yours to take longer to heat up but then shed heat more slowly.

Of course, we have different engines 1.9 TDI (moderately tuned) vs. 1.6 TD. When I'm running on the freeway at speed, I'll see a sustained 10-12 psi. It's that sustained speed when I see my IAT's creep up.

Hmm...?

Mark
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Gizmoman
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I cruise on the freeway around 65 to 70 MPH and run an average of 7-8 lbs.The Holset is an awesome turbo.
I was running a K-14 and found that I needed to boost over 15lbs to climb much of a grade. That really brought the temps up because it's out of the turbo's efficiency range.
The Holset is very happy even at 20 PSI (I seldom go there though).

Too much fuel in your air will raise EGT's rather quickly. Have you tried backing off the fuel screw?

I'm really no expert - not even close. I got it where it was reliable, and reasonably moves well and just drive it now.
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lloydy
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gizmoman wrote:


I'm really no expert - not even close. I got it where it was reliable, and reasonably moves well and just drive it now.

And that, is the best feeling. When the constant tinkering stops, and the driving starts
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markd89
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gizmoman,

I'm bumping our discussion from last year as I'm going to revisit my intercooler setup, with perhaps a larger radiator like yours.

Questions:

1. Do you know your water temps before/after the radiator?
2. Do you knoww your IAT before the intercooler? (I know you know it afterward)

I'd like to understand how much heat your radiator is eliminating from the water and also the delta on the air temps.

I have ordered up some cheapo digital thermometers to make the same measurements on my rig. I want to be sure that making the radiator bigger will get me enough of an IAT drop to be worth it.

Thanks much,
Mark
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Gizmoman
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, but that's a negative on both questions. I have too many gauges to watch already. I figure if the IAT stays reasonable (typically only 10-15 degrees above ambient), my guess is the water is in that range as well.

The water tank is a piece of black ABS with caps on both ends - it's about three feet long or so and mounted alongside the frame rails. The ABS caps are pretty thick and can take a 1/2" pipe thread pretty well.

I also have a small "overflow" tank under the rear bench seat to make it easy to check/fill. The system is running a light mix of antifreeze and Water Wetter as well.
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shadetreetim
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saab 900 Air to Air for my AEB 1.8T. IC standing up in the passenger rear corner, fan runs when engine running, relayed off of alternator tickler wire. Fan plenum blocked off from tail light with ABS sheet.

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Under load runs about 35 degrees over ambient.
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dkoesyncro
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where's the low pressure area, thumb or fingers?
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lloydy
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine vents where your fingers are
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tclark
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lloydy

I am walking down the air to water route with all the compilations (talk me off ledge:) with my PD130, GT2052 upgrade
why ...
driving on the west coast of .ca in bc its all mountains and long grades
its just part of an over all strategy to manage egts..
My poor IC design(bad routing & the hole beneath the fan in the bottom of the D-Pillar) with a stock k3 or k3/k4 hybird turbo,
on a hot day, ambient 30c, going up grade, 3rd gear, I can recall 260f
I cant imagine a WELL designed ATA when exposed on regular basis to these temps & operating environment could hold its own compared to ATW..
other ATW niceties
- IC is actually smaller than AIA since ATW is more efficient, (rad is bigger:)
-minimizes wide temp swings that can also mess with ecu tuning
OR
Do *NOT* know wtf i am talking about ?
-really luv the simplicity of ATA. ATW is another system to care & feed Sad

Back in August 2014 you posted this info
type ATA
Speed___IAT C___F
30_________ 39 102
55_________ 45 113
hill_________ 61 140
Max________ 63 145

Can you recall ambient temps when you measured these readings ?

I am curious you say
"slightly warmer than the water/air set up but no much."
can you elaborate because of IC claims for air to water are usually a MUCH bigger variance than "slightly" Smile
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lloydy
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, those temps above were taken in france in the summer. Ambient temps would have been 25c-ish. In this colder weather on the motorway cruising just over 60mph (roughly 3200rpm) i am getting mid 30c's
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The fan on mine is set to come on at 45c

I wouldn't necessarily say water is better than air or visa versa. Air will do just as well as long as it has air flow, which is hard in our vans.
I had a good water set up, and was happy with it. I went to air partly just 'because' and partly down to me wanting less moving parts and less chance of filling my intake with water. I have been pleasantly surprised with the temps I've achieved and its more than enough for me. It doesn't need to be drag car ice cold.
My water set up ran maybe on average 5c cooler, so not much.
i will still be fitting a scoop to the top of the D pillar at some stage, just to see what difference it makes really.
Most people do go water and it is easier to get good results going that route.
Anyway, wow 260f! thats 126c! very hot.. i think around 80c the ecu starts to trim fueling?
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