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erste Samba Member
Joined: March 29, 2013 Posts: 1110 Location: San Francisco
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:16 pm Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! |
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I've seen IATs as high as 230F in my AHU TDI. Stock Mk3 TDI air to air intercooler located in the driver's side D pillar, with Bulli/T3 intake scoops.
Trying to do what I can to keep intake temps down, so I wrapped the intake pipes in some gold DEI tape and got a turbo/manifold blanket from PTP which I think will help a lot. The TDI laid over at 50° just puts all of that turbo heat right into the intake manifold and piping.
Also put a puller fan on the intercooler but haven't had it on the road much since then. Fan is a Spal 30100358 7.5" wired to a manual switch. On a short drive across town I saw a 10°F drop when I turned the fan on at a stop light. Even though there's not much space behind the fan, at least it seems to be doing something.
Fan is just zip tied to the intercooler. It was a tight fit, but it works.
Any thoughts on drilling a few large holes under the intercooler/fan so the air can be pulled through with (presumably) less restriction? |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17011 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:53 am Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! |
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My intercooler sits flat on the bottom of the rear pillar. It hurt, but I cut out the area under the intercooler. I sealed the pillar area into the engine compartment. If there is natural air flow and slightly positive pressure, that air will move through the intercooler.
I have no idea if that is true or not. Just a hypothesis. At highway speeds I measure 30f over ambient. My IAT is mounted between the intercooler and the intake, isolated by silicone hose on both ends. IAT does climb on long uphill grinds, but nothing like you report. It also cools quickly when the load is removed. _________________ ☮️ |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:27 am Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! |
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In addition to cutting a large hole in the bottom of the pillar, some folks have ducted the underside to fully exit directly toward the rear of he van. I think for this to work properly, the whole column from grille to exit needs to be completely sealed, and entirely separate from the engine compartment. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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erste Samba Member
Joined: March 29, 2013 Posts: 1110 Location: San Francisco
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Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:46 pm Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! |
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MarkWard wrote: |
My intercooler sits flat on the bottom of the rear pillar. It hurt, but I cut out the area under the intercooler. I sealed the pillar area into the engine compartment. |
Thanks for the input. Reading through old threads I'd come across your posts about temps being acceptable but didn't realize you'd cut out the area under the IC. We have similar setups and it's encouraging to hear that you're not seeing such high temps with the floor cut out below the cooler. I'll most likely go this route.
The IAT sensor on mine is on a short length of tubing just after the U bend between the intake and the IC.
Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
In addition to cutting a large hole in the bottom of the pillar, some folks have ducted the underside to fully exit directly toward the rear of he van. I think for this to work properly, the whole column from grille to exit needs to be completely sealed, and entirely separate from the engine compartment. |
I agree and that seems like the logical thing to do. Build a shroud 2-3" below the cut out area and duct it out the back of the van, keeping it fully sealed from the engine bay. My setup now just seems to be creating a lot of turbulance. Turbo and exhaust being under this area just complicates things.
I like what dkoesyncro's done except leave it open at the back. Or let it vent toward the engine and add some louvres in the back panel between the tail lights and the license plate.
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rmcd Samba Member
Joined: October 29, 2010 Posts: 1348 Location: PNW - its a dry rain.
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:40 pm Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! |
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I installed an all aluminum Saab intercooler with a puller fan.
The space is completely sealed off from the engine department with fitted aluminum plates on the engine side and 1/4” thick rubber curtains facing the tail light.
The bottom of the pillar is cut out exposing and vent the fan. This is covered with a sheet metal enclosure to provide a heat shield and a low pressure area that is open to the rear of the van via a little fin.
I’m not convinced that this contraption does anything. I’ll run some tests this winter. _________________ VW LT40 build. Like a Vanagon but 30% larger in every direction and 40% slower even in metric.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=749359&highlight= |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22568 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:43 am Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! |
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Quote: |
I’m not convinced that this contraption does anything. |
Great sig line _________________ .ssS! |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17011 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:03 am Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! |
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I’d be curious to know how much the fan helps. Also what the IAT average is in an original street car. Certainly the lower the IAT is, the better, but what’s realistic and to what effort? I like the simplicity of just an air to air cooler. _________________ ☮️ |
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erste Samba Member
Joined: March 29, 2013 Posts: 1110 Location: San Francisco
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Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:59 pm Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! |
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MarkWard wrote: |
I’d be curious to know how much the fan helps. |
In my case it seems like the fan will drop the IAT by 25-35°F. The highest intake temp with the fan running that I saw on the trip to Tahoe and back over the weekend was 195F.
On one stretch of road (easy hills, 45-55mph, and 75-80F ambient) I flipped the fan on and off a few times and saw temps drop from around 184F to around 155F. That was after a few hours of driving, so everything was nice and warm. Did something similar on the way home and saw about the same difference in temp drop.
What I've noticed is how closely IAT seems to align with the coolant temp without the fan running. My TDI runs at 191F coolant temp almost like clockwork, and the IAT will be right there with the coolant temp.
rmcd, thanks for posting your setup. IC right above the exhaust is obviously not ideal but I'm interested to see how that heatshield works out. |
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rotaecho Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2012 Posts: 513 Location: Nomadic Vanlifer
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Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! |
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So, been awhile but more updates!
I recently updated to a larger turbo (GT2052) where I had a K14 before; was still running DLC764 nozzles and Karl's mTDI IP.
I'm a 6000lbs hightop Westy.
NOTE: The 90 off the CCV is now a 180 loop that starts from end of the head; the back pressure was too much for the 90s.
The Renault IC seems more than adequate to cool the engine. I never have problems when climbing mountains. I don't use a fan on it either.
I recently did a 6% incline boosting 18lbs @ 1050-1150F EGTs sustained max up the climb going 75mph. My coolant gauge doesn't budge from the LED location. Cool the whole time never budges. Rarely does it ever.
Anymore than that though and I heat soak with either more boost/fuel.
However, my friend who put the same turbo on with a K&N filter (I recommended against) can boost to 18lbs no sweat with low EGTs. Same A2A IC. He's using a LR300 mTDI IP though. Other than that and 1019 nozzles pretty identical to my setup.
I'm now convinced the bottle neck is more the airbox for these high EGT's where the other components are more than adequate. Especially if you want more than 18lbs boost.
I'm currently buliding a custom airbox that uses the 98' TDI Jetta airfilter and will be placed in the same spot as the Donaldson. Hopefully by the new-year. _________________ -Will
1982 Westfalia mTDI (50deg) aka Betsy Bertha
http://www.tdivanagons.com |
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rmcd Samba Member
Joined: October 29, 2010 Posts: 1348 Location: PNW - its a dry rain.
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! |
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Eric just PMd me about this. I never reported back.
I think this contraption IS completely useless. I have a temp sender in the intercooler that is used by the ECU. I monitor it and the IATs are completely unaffected by the use of the fan, the addition of a scoop or forward speed.
My fan is on a switch so I can play with it for science. It is a aeronautical toggle switch so flipping it is most of the fun.
Later I added the scoop without any benefit except I think it looks really cool. And I painted the inside of it bright orange for safety. I wouldn’t want a pedestrian to get pulled in.
Scoop as photographed insitu during the wildfire evacuations.
I don’t get it. Some people “report” crazy drops in IAT when activating the puller fan. Mine might drop a degree. Maybe.
If I were to do it again I would do a2w. Wish I could report more positive. _________________ VW LT40 build. Like a Vanagon but 30% larger in every direction and 40% slower even in metric.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=749359&highlight= |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! |
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rmcd wrote: |
I think this contraption IS completely useless. I have a temp sender in the intercooler that is used by the ECU. I monitor it and the IATs are completely unaffected by the use of the fan, the addition of a scoop or forward speed. |
I'm curious how you have come to the conclusion that the intercooler is not effective? What are you seeing for intake air temperatures? Have you tried blocking the intercooler and compared temps without air passing through it?
I've run the same engine with and without an air to air intercooler in the d-pillar although with the exit air flowing into the engine compartment. I can unequivocally say that it had a marked effect on EGTs and performance. I also ran a fan and IAT sensor for a while (for science) and found that the fan didn't make any measurable difference with the air temps when driving and the temps at stopped/idle were low enough not to really register a difference with the fan on/off either. I took that to mean that the airflow through the intercooler was adequate enough that the fan did not help. If there is a significant drop when the fan is turned on, I would take that to mean that the intercooler is placed in a location where natural airflow is poor. |
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mathieux46 Samba Member
Joined: October 21, 2006 Posts: 255
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Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! |
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How do you guys control the intercooler electric fan?
Mine is currently always on when key is on but it makes noise and I would like to have it running only when needed. |
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rmcd Samba Member
Joined: October 29, 2010 Posts: 1348 Location: PNW - its a dry rain.
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Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! |
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Aaaaaagh. Face slap. I just figured out the systematic error that I have been making this whole time.
I am measuring IATs after the turbo (via the tmap sensor) and before the intercooler.
It took starring at this picture for a minute ....
I need a new temp sender inline AFTER the intercooler. Yes. I'm a dork. _________________ VW LT40 build. Like a Vanagon but 30% larger in every direction and 40% slower even in metric.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=749359&highlight= |
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valvecovergasket Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2018 Posts: 1491 Location: pnw
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Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! |
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rmcd wrote: |
Aaaaaagh. Face slap. I just figured out the systematic error that I have been making this whole time.
I am measuring IATs after the turbo (via the tmap sensor) and before the intercooler.
It took starring at this picture for a minute ....
I need a new temp sender inline AFTER the intercooler. Yes. I'm a dork. |
unless my eyes are deceiving me as to where the end tank split is across that core - isnt that sensor tapped into the downstream (cold) side of the IC? _________________ MegaSquirt resource - SpitfireEFI.com
gone, but not forgotten: '83 tdi westy - swap thread |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! |
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Yes, the intake manifold side of the cooler is the cool side. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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revolution337 Samba Member
Joined: May 23, 2009 Posts: 372 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! |
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mathieux46 wrote: |
How do you guys control the intercooler electric fan?
Mine is currently always on when key is on but it makes noise and I would like to have it running only when needed. |
I have intercooler fan switched by a relay, which is triggered by the D+ (blue wire) going to the alternator. That way the fan is only running whenever the engine is running, not just with the key on. _________________ 1982 Westfalia AEB 1.8t
2017 VW Golf Sportwagen
2001 Audi A4 4.2 V8 swapped
2000 BMW Z3 roadster
-Mark |
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dkoesyncro Samba Member
Joined: December 10, 2006 Posts: 981
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Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! |
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I have only used my fan to see if it works, but I have it on a switch. I have a dual gauge that I can watch temps before/after intercooler. |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! |
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My IC fan is temp switched, but it's never been triggered by enough heat. So far having two cooling cores connected in series has proven to be enough to keep EGTs down below 1050. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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mathieux46 Samba Member
Joined: October 21, 2006 Posts: 255
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Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! |
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Trying to find a thermo switch that I could screw into the intake or in the pipe system, not sure what model or temperature cut-in / cut out to look for.
I bought one if these cheapo temp controler W1209 Digital Thermostat
but the temperature probe is not threaded so I can't mount it to be in the air flow, |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! |
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If you mount the intercooler in a manner that it naturally receives decent flow a fan is not necessary. In some cases removing the fan actually helps flow through the intercooler. |
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