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Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please!
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goffoz
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dillonkoester wrote:

so thats in the area where the PS pump is with a water boxer?

A little lower and further back, closer to the tail pipe.
I've strapped a few ribbons back there, looks promising
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furrylittleotter
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a very simple solution to increase airflow through a pillar mounted intercooler; simply mount the intercooler, seal around it, mount a tapered shroud over it and connect your fresh air intake tube to it, that will draw fresh air through the intercooler, cooling it. Simple. Very Happy

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dkoesyncro
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.just forward of the tailpipe. ..theory at this point...we'll see Very Happy
when I get it ducted I'll throw my pocket anemometer in there and go for a drive

so thats in the area where the PS pump is with a water boxer?
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goffoz
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dillonkoester wrote:
Thats a good looking scoop.

Thankyou (elvis voice) Very Happy
dillonkoester wrote:
What is a good low pressure area?

...just forward of the tailpipe. ..theory at this point...we'll see Very Happy
when I get it ducted I'll throw my pocket anemometer in there and go for a drive
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dkoesyncro
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats a good looking scoop. What is a good low pressure area? I thought I would use the D pillar and funnel/duct it to the I/C, where it is then doghoused to the I/C. If I understand; then it's from here the air that exits through the I/C needs to be duct to a low pressure area"?"
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goffoz
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a project I'm working on this week also.
So far this little scoop,
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

plus adding some engine compartment tin and splash shields. and a big bash plate, has reduced my engine temps by about 10deg....don't have a IAT temp sensor yet Sad
No pics of the tin yet, still working on it. I will seal, and duct the drivers D pillar down to the max low pressure...just forward of the tailpipe.
..opening will be a greater volume than the scoop and face rearward.should create a large low pressure
We'll see Confused

....for lower road speeds there will be a fan Smile on the IC
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dillonkoester wrote:


Bottom line air/air and plenty of flow for the vanagon.


But only if you can get enough airflow through it, and therein lies the problem. Unless relatively drastic measures are taken, the D pillar does not see enough airflow to cool the intake air as well as an air/water system. This has been shown time and again.

I have also spoken with Gerhard Schruf at length about this (back on 2007) and the bottom line is that as the van sits stock, there is not adequate airflow through the intercooler to achieve optimum cooling with it simply placed in the pocket behind the tail light. As come others have done, the only way to achieve adequate cooling from this configuration is to completely seal off the pocket so that all of the incoming air goes through the intercooler and then it must be vented to a low pressure area. Other wise the air basically becomes somewhat stagnant. There is definitely not a vacuum pulling air down the pillar and out through the engine compartment. Testing shows that the pressures in those areas becomes somewhat equal at speed.
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dkoesyncro
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am so glad this came up! I just spoke w/ Gearhard an Austrian engineer for Bell Inter coolers today. I was really considering an air/water cooler and had some Q's, after his teaching his advice was an air/air for this application because.......An air/water is used and really only warranted under extreme conditions such as racing where your under full boost and pushing rev limits and ambient/force air is not enough to cool properly or enough. He also stressed that fans are not enough that you need to have proper air flow through the I/C for it to work and the fan is much like the fan on a radiator its there for when ambient air is not enough to cool. He said unless I am using the van outside of normal uses an air/air is more than enough. I then explained I have a syncro and I use it like a jeep at times. His reply is if I am at full boost at 1-10 mph for extended amounts of time then I have built an engine that is for the wrong purpose, "Good point" i said!

The D pillar is the best place for an inter cooler according to Gearhard, he said the biggest challenge is making sure enough air can get to the I/C. He speculated that at high speeds the D pillar may in fact see a vacuum all tough its speculation.

Bottom line air/air and plenty of flow for the vanagon.
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davevickery
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the Saab intercooler. I guess people use these because they fit pretty well. There is one on each side with a pipe that runs around behind the license plate to connect them. These lay flat so only one side is getting any air, but I could prop it up I guess. The drivers side is more crowded because the cone filter is also jammed in there.

I checked my intake temps with the pillar open and blocked off with foam and I thought it was better blocked off. In stop and go, I wanted to isolate the heat from the turbo. At speed it didn't seem to make much difference. I didn't write down the comparison temperatures, but now I'm curious and will double check.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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lloydy
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for all these replies, i am going down the route of air/air. It will lay flat at the bottom of the D pillar and be ducted to rear of the van. I'm having this corner rebuilt during a restoration, so it's not much extra work.
It will also have a thermostatically controlled fan, with the sensor for the stat fitted into a welded boss on the outlet of intercooler. this will put the stat in the actual air, so should be quick to react.
I am using a intercooler from a Audi A3, the plastic ends are being cut off and new ends tig'd on, making the inlet/outlet on the same side. The whole lot will be sealed off from the engine bay.
I'll post pictures as and when i get sent them
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Howesight
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my 2 cents: (actual value): The only way to make an air to air IC really effective in the D-pillar, it seems to me, is to have a switched fan, the switching based either on intake air temp or based on a threshold boost level. To really get some flow without a fan, you would need a large scoop at the top of the D-pillar and a dedicated duct after the IC to the very rear of the van (the low-pressure area) with an added diffuser, to get air flow through the IC comparable to the cooling power of the front water-to-air IC. In my opinion, all of that is too much work and space just to avoid fan noise.

No, I have no experience with this set up, but I am only taking into account Loogy's air pressure data and the known low-pressure area at the rear of the van. In short, to the OP, the water-to-air IC is a very smart system, compared to the many compromises the air-to-air IC requires on a Vanagon.
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OddN
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnnygreenham wrote:
You can orientate the pipes and hoses into a few directions and give you the same effect. Here's mine

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Thanks, that is how I originally thought Id do it, however if I can reduce the number of turns a bit, I think it would be good for the flow.
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johnnygreenham
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can orientate the pipes and hoses into a few directions and give you the same effect. Here's mine

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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OddN
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew A. Libby wrote:
Why are you going from water/air to air/air. The water/air system, if set up well, will outperform the air/air with the downside being the cost of the components which you already have.

I've done several D-pillar installs using the Saab 900 intercooler. They work well. I believe that a common mistake that folks make with this type of install is to cut out the bottom of the D-pillar and isolate the intercooler from the engine compartment. This nullifies the flow down the d-pillar.

Here are a few pics. of how I've done it.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


IMO one of the greatest challenges when going with an air to air intercooler is that it eliminates the use of the d-pillar for intake air. If aux oil cooler is placed on the right side of the engine and intercooler on the left there's no easy place to get clean cool intake air.


I have a question about this setup. What inlet manifold are you using? I have the original AAZ inlet and exhaust manifold, and the outlet from the turbo appears to be in the same Place as on Your setup. The inlet manifold however is pointing rearwards, not upwards like on Yours. The top o f the manifold can be unbolted and turned 180 degrees so it Points forward, but that is not ideal either. I also have a TDI manifold from an AHU i think, that also Points forward. Your setup looks better though.
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jake de Villiers wrote:
Christopher Schimke wrote:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=398314


However, the chart image is missing from the initial post, making it hard to follow the ensuing discussion.


Yeah, since I can't edit the original post anymore, I added the chart to the end. Better than nothing, but maybe a mod can move it back up to the original post.

Quote:

You're amazing, Chris! Wink


To be perfectly honest, the level of skill and knowledge in this little community is what amazes me, and I am often humbled by the amount of time and effort that people spend sharing and teaching. I'm just trying my best to do my part as pay back for the things that I have learned from others. Thanks!
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Jake de Villiers
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Christopher Schimke wrote:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=398314


You're amazing, Chris! Wink

However, the chart image is missing from the initial post, making it hard to follow the ensuing discussion.

EDIT: The image with the data under discussion has been added to the end of the thread.
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Last edited by Jake de Villiers on Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=398314
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="SyncroGhia"]
Andrew A. Libby wrote:


Andrew, was it you that did all of the research with flow meters inside the D-pillar testing flow rates with the bottom opened up, closed and air directed into the engine bay a while back?

There is a post on here somewhere that goes into great detail about why it's a really bad idea to try to vent the air coming in the D-pillar vent, out of the bottom and from memory it's that you have a high pressure point at the top and another at the bottom so the air just doesn't flow. If you vent it into the engine bay, the back of the van is a low pressure area so the air flows?

I could have that all wrong... but that's how I understood it.

MG

i have read the same post, it mentions its better to vent into the engine bay, and even better to channel it to the rear panel
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I first joined the Samba, a member did some pretty expansive testing of the D pillar with pressure, scoops etc. Unfortunately, I did not book mark it. I recall there is not as much pressure as you would expect and there was not much you could do to improve it.

I never tested on a air cooled vanagon, but on my 68 bus, if the engine was running, it would hold a peice of paper against the vent even at idle. That is why it is so important to have a properly sealed engine compartment on an air cooled engine.

On the WBX, I am not so sure how neccessary the vents are. For sure when you shut the engine off, it is a good place for heat to rise out of the engine compartment. There is also an advanatage of insuring the intake air is as cool as possible in most climates.

Disclaimer: All of the above is just an opinion. Your results may vary.
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SyncroGhia
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew A. Libby wrote:
Why are you going from water/air to air/air. The water/air system, if set up well, will outperform the air/air with the downside being the cost of the components which you already have.

I've done several D-pillar installs using the Saab 900 intercooler. They work well. I believe that a common mistake that folks make with this type of install is to cut out the bottom of the D-pillar and isolate the intercooler from the engine compartment. This nullifies the flow down the d-pillar.

Here are a few pics. of how I've done it.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


IMO one of the greatest challenges when going with an air to air intercooler is that it eliminates the use of the d-pillar for intake air. If aux oil cooler is placed on the right side of the engine and intercooler on the left there's no easy place to get clean cool intake air.


Andrew, was it you that did all of the research with flow meters inside the D-pillar testing flow rates with the bottom opened up, closed and air directed into the engine bay a while back?

There is a post on here somewhere that goes into great detail about why it's a really bad idea to try to vent the air coming in the D-pillar vent, out of the bottom and from memory it's that you have a high pressure point at the top and another at the bottom so the air just doesn't flow. If you vent it into the engine bay, the back of the van is a low pressure area so the air flows?

I could have that all wrong... but that's how I understood it.

MG
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