Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please!
Page: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Forum Index -> Vanagon Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
lloydy
Samba Member


Joined: September 15, 2010
Posts: 701
Location: cheam surrey
lloydy is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:10 am    Post subject: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! Reply with quote

Hi all, at the moment i have a air/water chargecooler and i'm looking at changing to air/air. I'm thinking of putting it at the bottom of the D pillar, then sealing the D pillar from the engine bay. Then after the air has gone through the intercooler trunking it to the rear panel which is a low pressure area.
So, does anyone have any pictures of their setup? or links to topics with pictures?
Would like to hear what people have done and whether it worked well
thanks
_________________
16" multivan pop top AFN TDI
“Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
?Waldo?
Samba Member


Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 7829
Location: Where?
?Waldo? is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why are you going from water/air to air/air. The water/air system, if set up well, will outperform the air/air with the downside being the cost of the components which you already have.

I've done several D-pillar installs using the Saab 900 intercooler. They work well. I believe that a common mistake that folks make with this type of install is to cut out the bottom of the D-pillar and isolate the intercooler from the engine compartment. This nullifies the flow down the d-pillar.

Here are a few pics. of how I've done it.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


IMO one of the greatest challenges when going with an air to air intercooler is that it eliminates the use of the d-pillar for intake air. If aux oil cooler is placed on the right side of the engine and intercooler on the left there's no easy place to get clean cool intake air.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
lloydy
Samba Member


Joined: September 15, 2010
Posts: 701
Location: cheam surrey
lloydy is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, thanks for the reply. I have seen a few of your set ups and they look good.
Reasons for looking at going air/air....
I am having a lot of bodywork done at the moment and the guy doing the work is happy to adapt the bottom of the D pillar to fit a intercooler in and trunk the 'spent' air to the rear panel in a way it will look 'factory'

Removing the chargecooler will free up a lot of space for me to fit the jx filter back in, instead of the K&N apollo i use at the moment.

less failure points with the pump, long pipe runs and radiator gone.

Basically i want less custom parts and more off the shelf parts, i do a lot of travelling in this syncro and want to be able to replace stuff easy.
As well as the bodywork i am also having a new tdi lump built (hydrolocked last one) so it seems a good time to sort this, and as you say, there is value in the parts i will be removing.
At the moment it's looking like it will be a cross between your setup and the way tristar eric does his
_________________
16" multivan pop top AFN TDI
“Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
OddN
Samba Member


Joined: August 19, 2010
Posts: 681
Location: Northern Norway
OddN is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew A. Libby wrote:
Why are you going from water/air to air/air. The water/air system, if set up well, will outperform the air/air with the downside being the cost of the components which you already have.

I've done several D-pillar installs using the Saab 900 intercooler. They work well. I believe that a common mistake that folks make with this type of install is to cut out the bottom of the D-pillar and isolate the intercooler from the engine compartment. This nullifies the flow down the d-pillar.

Here are a few pics. of how I've done it.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


IMO one of the greatest challenges when going with an air to air intercooler is that it eliminates the use of the d-pillar for intake air. If aux oil cooler is placed on the right side of the engine and intercooler on the left there's no easy place to get clean cool intake air.


I have a Saab intercooler laying around waiting for such an install on my own AAZ syncro. Could you please elaborate a little more on the install? Up till now I, like many other thought the best way was to cut out the bottom of the D pillar to get the most air flow through the cooler. I will use the right D-pillar for engine intake air.
_________________
1991 VW Multivan syncro 1,9 TD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
MarkWard
Samba Member


Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 11155
Location: Palm Beach County, Florida
MarkWard is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evidentally, I have made the mistake to which Andrew mentions.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I can't comment on the pressure in the D pillar, but I see intake temps after the cooler about 30 degrees over ambient at highway speeds. My cooler is from the aftermarket. I appreciate the simplicity of an air to air cooler, but if I really wanted to manage the IAT, I would go with the water to air types of setups. I'd probably also add a water/menthanol injection type kit.
_________________
1982 Vanagon Camper with ALH TDI conversion.
1990 Vanagon Camper Syncro conversion. Offers?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
lloydy
Samba Member


Joined: September 15, 2010
Posts: 701
Location: cheam surrey
lloydy is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rsxsr wrote:
Evidentally, I have made the mistake to which Andrew mentions.



I can't comment on the pressure in the D pillar, but I see intake temps after the cooler about 30 degrees over ambient at highway speeds. My cooler is from the aftermarket. I appreciate the simplicity of an air to air cooler, but if I really wanted to manage the IAT, I would go with the water to air types of setups. I'd probably also add a water/menthanol injection type kit.

MY water air one is very good, but maybe overkill for what is afterall a pretty much standard engine (AFN TDI). I did get hung up for a while on how cool can i make the intake. But i am now realising i do not run a drag car, it's a camper and doesn't really need the complexity.
Going by posts i am reading on this forum, majority of people seem to get reasonable airflow, and trunking the spent air to a low pressure area is key to that i think. Also, maybe one of those scoops on the D pillar vent might help?
_________________
16" multivan pop top AFN TDI
“Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
SyncroGhia
Samba Member


Joined: August 21, 2009
Posts: 2439
Location: Highnam, UK
SyncroGhia is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew A. Libby wrote:
Why are you going from water/air to air/air. The water/air system, if set up well, will outperform the air/air with the downside being the cost of the components which you already have.

I've done several D-pillar installs using the Saab 900 intercooler. They work well. I believe that a common mistake that folks make with this type of install is to cut out the bottom of the D-pillar and isolate the intercooler from the engine compartment. This nullifies the flow down the d-pillar.

Here are a few pics. of how I've done it.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


IMO one of the greatest challenges when going with an air to air intercooler is that it eliminates the use of the d-pillar for intake air. If aux oil cooler is placed on the right side of the engine and intercooler on the left there's no easy place to get clean cool intake air.


Andrew, was it you that did all of the research with flow meters inside the D-pillar testing flow rates with the bottom opened up, closed and air directed into the engine bay a while back?

There is a post on here somewhere that goes into great detail about why it's a really bad idea to try to vent the air coming in the D-pillar vent, out of the bottom and from memory it's that you have a high pressure point at the top and another at the bottom so the air just doesn't flow. If you vent it into the engine bay, the back of the van is a low pressure area so the air flows?

I could have that all wrong... but that's how I understood it.

MG
_________________
T3 Syncro 16 S6 Westfalia Limey SOLD
T3 Syncro 6x6 SOLD
T3 RS6 Bluestar
T3 Tristar Syncro 16 SOLD
T3 Tristar Syncro RHD SOLD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger Gallery Classifieds Feedback
MarkWard
Samba Member


Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 11155
Location: Palm Beach County, Florida
MarkWard is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I first joined the Samba, a member did some pretty expansive testing of the D pillar with pressure, scoops etc. Unfortunately, I did not book mark it. I recall there is not as much pressure as you would expect and there was not much you could do to improve it.

I never tested on a air cooled vanagon, but on my 68 bus, if the engine was running, it would hold a peice of paper against the vent even at idle. That is why it is so important to have a properly sealed engine compartment on an air cooled engine.

On the WBX, I am not so sure how neccessary the vents are. For sure when you shut the engine off, it is a good place for heat to rise out of the engine compartment. There is also an advanatage of insuring the intake air is as cool as possible in most climates.

Disclaimer: All of the above is just an opinion. Your results may vary.
_________________
1982 Vanagon Camper with ALH TDI conversion.
1990 Vanagon Camper Syncro conversion. Offers?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
lloydy
Samba Member


Joined: September 15, 2010
Posts: 701
Location: cheam surrey
lloydy is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="SyncroGhia"]
Andrew A. Libby wrote:


Andrew, was it you that did all of the research with flow meters inside the D-pillar testing flow rates with the bottom opened up, closed and air directed into the engine bay a while back?

There is a post on here somewhere that goes into great detail about why it's a really bad idea to try to vent the air coming in the D-pillar vent, out of the bottom and from memory it's that you have a high pressure point at the top and another at the bottom so the air just doesn't flow. If you vent it into the engine bay, the back of the van is a low pressure area so the air flows?

I could have that all wrong... but that's how I understood it.

MG

i have read the same post, it mentions its better to vent into the engine bay, and even better to channel it to the rear panel
_________________
16" multivan pop top AFN TDI
“Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Christopher Schimke
Samba Member


Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5132
Location: PNW
Christopher Schimke is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=398314
_________________
Christopher

*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Jake de Villiers
Samba Member


Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 4741
Location: Crescent Beach, BC
Jake de Villiers is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Christopher Schimke wrote:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=398314


You're amazing, Chris! Wink

However, the chart image is missing from the initial post, making it hard to follow the ensuing discussion.

EDIT: The image with the data under discussion has been added to the end of the thread.
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com


Last edited by Jake de Villiers on Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:34 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Christopher Schimke
Samba Member


Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5132
Location: PNW
Christopher Schimke is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jake de Villiers wrote:
Christopher Schimke wrote:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=398314


However, the chart image is missing from the initial post, making it hard to follow the ensuing discussion.


Yeah, since I can't edit the original post anymore, I added the chart to the end. Better than nothing, but maybe a mod can move it back up to the original post.

Quote:

You're amazing, Chris! Wink


To be perfectly honest, the level of skill and knowledge in this little community is what amazes me, and I am often humbled by the amount of time and effort that people spend sharing and teaching. I'm just trying my best to do my part as pay back for the things that I have learned from others. Thanks!
_________________
Christopher

*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
OddN
Samba Member


Joined: August 19, 2010
Posts: 681
Location: Northern Norway
OddN is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew A. Libby wrote:
Why are you going from water/air to air/air. The water/air system, if set up well, will outperform the air/air with the downside being the cost of the components which you already have.

I've done several D-pillar installs using the Saab 900 intercooler. They work well. I believe that a common mistake that folks make with this type of install is to cut out the bottom of the D-pillar and isolate the intercooler from the engine compartment. This nullifies the flow down the d-pillar.

Here are a few pics. of how I've done it.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


IMO one of the greatest challenges when going with an air to air intercooler is that it eliminates the use of the d-pillar for intake air. If aux oil cooler is placed on the right side of the engine and intercooler on the left there's no easy place to get clean cool intake air.


I have a question about this setup. What inlet manifold are you using? I have the original AAZ inlet and exhaust manifold, and the outlet from the turbo appears to be in the same Place as on Your setup. The inlet manifold however is pointing rearwards, not upwards like on Yours. The top o f the manifold can be unbolted and turned 180 degrees so it Points forward, but that is not ideal either. I also have a TDI manifold from an AHU i think, that also Points forward. Your setup looks better though.
_________________
1991 VW Multivan syncro 1,9 TD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
johnnygreenham
Samba Member


Joined: January 17, 2013
Posts: 449
Location: Upper Jay NY
johnnygreenham is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can orientate the pipes and hoses into a few directions and give you the same effect. Here's mine

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
1982 Diesel 1.9TD AAZ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
OddN
Samba Member


Joined: August 19, 2010
Posts: 681
Location: Northern Norway
OddN is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnnygreenham wrote:
You can orientate the pipes and hoses into a few directions and give you the same effect. Here's mine

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Thanks, that is how I originally thought Id do it, however if I can reduce the number of turns a bit, I think it would be good for the flow.
_________________
1991 VW Multivan syncro 1,9 TD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Howesight
Samba Member


Joined: July 02, 2008
Posts: 2319
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Howesight is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my 2 cents: (actual value): The only way to make an air to air IC really effective in the D-pillar, it seems to me, is to have a switched fan, the switching based either on intake air temp or based on a threshold boost level. To really get some flow without a fan, you would need a large scoop at the top of the D-pillar and a dedicated duct after the IC to the very rear of the van (the low-pressure area) with an added diffuser, to get air flow through the IC comparable to the cooling power of the front water-to-air IC. In my opinion, all of that is too much work and space just to avoid fan noise.

No, I have no experience with this set up, but I am only taking into account Loogy's air pressure data and the known low-pressure area at the rear of the van. In short, to the OP, the water-to-air IC is a very smart system, compared to the many compromises the air-to-air IC requires on a Vanagon.
_________________
'86 Syncro Westy SVX


Last edited by Howesight on Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
lloydy
Samba Member


Joined: September 15, 2010
Posts: 701
Location: cheam surrey
lloydy is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for all these replies, i am going down the route of air/air. It will lay flat at the bottom of the D pillar and be ducted to rear of the van. I'm having this corner rebuilt during a restoration, so it's not much extra work.
It will also have a thermostatically controlled fan, with the sensor for the stat fitted into a welded boss on the outlet of intercooler. this will put the stat in the actual air, so should be quick to react.
I am using a intercooler from a Audi A3, the plastic ends are being cut off and new ends tig'd on, making the inlet/outlet on the same side. The whole lot will be sealed off from the engine bay.
I'll post pictures as and when i get sent them
_________________
16" multivan pop top AFN TDI
“Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
davevickery
Samba Member


Joined: July 16, 2005
Posts: 2887
Location: Fort Collins, CO
davevickery is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the Saab intercooler. I guess people use these because they fit pretty well. There is one on each side with a pipe that runs around behind the license plate to connect them. These lay flat so only one side is getting any air, but I could prop it up I guess. The drivers side is more crowded because the cone filter is also jammed in there.

I checked my intake temps with the pillar open and blocked off with foam and I thought it was better blocked off. In stop and go, I wanted to isolate the heat from the turbo. At speed it didn't seem to make much difference. I didn't write down the comparison temperatures, but now I'm curious and will double check.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
dkoesyncro
Samba Member


Joined: December 10, 2006
Posts: 782

dkoesyncro is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am so glad this came up! I just spoke w/ Gearhard an Austrian engineer for Bell Inter coolers today. I was really considering an air/water cooler and had some Q's, after his teaching his advice was an air/air for this application because.......An air/water is used and really only warranted under extreme conditions such as racing where your under full boost and pushing rev limits and ambient/force air is not enough to cool properly or enough. He also stressed that fans are not enough that you need to have proper air flow through the I/C for it to work and the fan is much like the fan on a radiator its there for when ambient air is not enough to cool. He said unless I am using the van outside of normal uses an air/air is more than enough. I then explained I have a syncro and I use it like a jeep at times. His reply is if I am at full boost at 1-10 mph for extended amounts of time then I have built an engine that is for the wrong purpose, "Good point" i said!

The D pillar is the best place for an inter cooler according to Gearhard, he said the biggest challenge is making sure enough air can get to the I/C. He speculated that at high speeds the D pillar may in fact see a vacuum all tough its speculation.

Bottom line air/air and plenty of flow for the vanagon.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Christopher Schimke
Samba Member


Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5132
Location: PNW
Christopher Schimke is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dillonkoester wrote:


Bottom line air/air and plenty of flow for the vanagon.


But only if you can get enough airflow through it, and therein lies the problem. Unless relatively drastic measures are taken, the D pillar does not see enough airflow to cool the intake air as well as an air/water system. This has been shown time and again.

I have also spoken with Gerhard Schruf at length about this (back on 2007) and the bottom line is that as the van sits stock, there is not adequate airflow through the intercooler to achieve optimum cooling with it simply placed in the pocket behind the tail light. As come others have done, the only way to achieve adequate cooling from this configuration is to completely seal off the pocket so that all of the incoming air goes through the intercooler and then it must be vented to a low pressure area. Other wise the air basically becomes somewhat stagnant. There is definitely not a vacuum pulling air down the pillar and out through the engine compartment. Testing shows that the pressures in those areas becomes somewhat equal at speed.
_________________
Christopher

*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Vanagon All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 1 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2018, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB