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Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please!
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rotaecho
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PostPosted: Today 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! Reply with quote

So, been awhile but more updates!

I recently updated to a larger turbo (GT2052) where I had a K14 before; was still running DLC764 nozzles and Karl's mTDI IP.

I'm a 6000lbs hightop Westy.

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NOTE: The 90 off the CCV is now a 180 loop that starts from end of the head; the back pressure was too much for the 90s.

The Renault IC seems more than adequate to cool the engine. I never have problems when climbing mountains. I don't use a fan on it either.

I recently did a 6% incline boosting 18lbs @ 1050-1150F EGTs sustained max up the climb going 75mph. My coolant gauge doesn't budge from the LED location. Cool the whole time never budges. Rarely does it ever.

Anymore than that though and I heat soak with either more boost/fuel.

However, my friend who put the same turbo on with a K&N filter (I recommended against) can boost to 18lbs no sweat with low EGTs. Same A2A IC. He's using a LR300 mTDI IP though. Other than that and 1019 nozzles pretty identical to my setup.

I'm now convinced the bottle neck is more the airbox for these high EGT's where the other components are more than adequate. Especially if you want more than 18lbs boost.

I'm currently buliding a custom airbox that uses the 98' TDI Jetta airfilter and will be placed in the same spot as the Donaldson. Hopefully by the new-year.
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erste
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
Id be curious to know how much the fan helps.

In my case it seems like the fan will drop the IAT by 25-35F. The highest intake temp with the fan running that I saw on the trip to Tahoe and back over the weekend was 195F.

On one stretch of road (easy hills, 45-55mph, and 75-80F ambient) I flipped the fan on and off a few times and saw temps drop from around 184F to around 155F. That was after a few hours of driving, so everything was nice and warm. Did something similar on the way home and saw about the same difference in temp drop.

What I've noticed is how closely IAT seems to align with the coolant temp without the fan running. My TDI runs at 191F coolant temp almost like clockwork, and the IAT will be right there with the coolant temp.

rmcd, thanks for posting your setup. IC right above the exhaust is obviously not ideal but I'm interested to see how that heatshield works out.
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:03 am    Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! Reply with quote

Id be curious to know how much the fan helps. Also what the IAT average is in an original street car. Certainly the lower the IAT is, the better, but whats realistic and to what effort? I like the simplicity of just an air to air cooler.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:43 am    Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! Reply with quote

Quote:
Im not convinced that this contraption does anything.


Great sig line
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rmcd
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! Reply with quote

I installed an all aluminum Saab intercooler with a puller fan.

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The space is completely sealed off from the engine department with fitted aluminum plates on the engine side and 1/4 thick rubber curtains facing the tail light.

The bottom of the pillar is cut out exposing and vent the fan. This is covered with a sheet metal enclosure to provide a heat shield and a low pressure area that is open to the rear of the van via a little fin.

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Im not convinced that this contraption does anything. Ill run some tests this winter.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
My intercooler sits flat on the bottom of the rear pillar. It hurt, but I cut out the area under the intercooler. I sealed the pillar area into the engine compartment.

Thanks for the input. Reading through old threads I'd come across your posts about temps being acceptable but didn't realize you'd cut out the area under the IC. We have similar setups and it's encouraging to hear that you're not seeing such high temps with the floor cut out below the cooler. I'll most likely go this route.

The IAT sensor on mine is on a short length of tubing just after the U bend between the intake and the IC.

Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
In addition to cutting a large hole in the bottom of the pillar, some folks have ducted the underside to fully exit directly toward the rear of he van. I think for this to work properly, the whole column from grille to exit needs to be completely sealed, and entirely separate from the engine compartment.

I agree and that seems like the logical thing to do. Build a shroud 2-3" below the cut out area and duct it out the back of the van, keeping it fully sealed from the engine bay. My setup now just seems to be creating a lot of turbulance. Turbo and exhaust being under this area just complicates things.

I like what dkoesyncro's done except leave it open at the back. Or let it vent toward the engine and add some louvres in the back panel between the tail lights and the license plate.
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:27 am    Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! Reply with quote

In addition to cutting a large hole in the bottom of the pillar, some folks have ducted the underside to fully exit directly toward the rear of he van. I think for this to work properly, the whole column from grille to exit needs to be completely sealed, and entirely separate from the engine compartment.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:53 am    Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! Reply with quote

My intercooler sits flat on the bottom of the rear pillar. It hurt, but I cut out the area under the intercooler. I sealed the pillar area into the engine compartment. If there is natural air flow and slightly positive pressure, that air will move through the intercooler.

I have no idea if that is true or not. Just a hypothesis. At highway speeds I measure 30f over ambient. My IAT is mounted between the intercooler and the intake, isolated by silicone hose on both ends. IAT does climb on long uphill grinds, but nothing like you report. It also cools quickly when the load is removed.
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erste
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! Reply with quote

I've seen IATs as high as 230F in my AHU TDI. Stock Mk3 TDI air to air intercooler located in the driver's side D pillar, with Bulli/T3 intake scoops.

Trying to do what I can to keep intake temps down, so I wrapped the intake pipes in some gold DEI tape and got a turbo/manifold blanket from PTP which I think will help a lot. The TDI laid over at 50 just puts all of that turbo heat right into the intake manifold and piping.

Also put a puller fan on the intercooler but haven't had it on the road much since then. Fan is a Spal 30100358 7.5" wired to a manual switch. On a short drive across town I saw a 10F drop when I turned the fan on at a stop light. Even though there's not much space behind the fan, at least it seems to be doing something.

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Fan is just zip tied to the intercooler. It was a tight fit, but it works.
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Any thoughts on drilling a few large holes under the intercooler/fan so the air can be pulled through with (presumably) less restriction?
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dkoesyncro
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 5:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! Reply with quote

With a scoop one would assume yes, but the scoop will add noise. The noise is air passing through the duct. We need sodo to chime in and do the math of "caught air via ram" at "what speed" is equal to "cfm".

Air in an intake manifold acts like a spring, it's why the ports/runners are gradual/swept or mandrel exhaust flows so well. The D pillar is challenging. Years ago, I talked with Bell intercoolers and Hans"?" an engineer speculated that the vanagon D pillar works like a vacuum at speeds, pulling hot air out. Who knows, a whole nother page exists on this debate.

I am going to use an air/water IC next go around. I will mount the heat exchanger up front just like the radiator.
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! Reply with quote

Hey Dylan. Are you thinking that the ram air of the vehicle moving will provide much more cooling versus just the puller fan?
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 5:20 am    Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! Reply with quote

Ron, that would seem right to me, given the explained circumstances.

IMO, the aic is such a fickle experiment to really gain any kind of cooling. It's in the DPillar, usually exhaust or a cat is mounted close, and the counter flow head guys have the intake butted up with the exhaust manifold. Cooling can be done and it has with success.
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 9:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! Reply with quote

Lets talk about the effectiveness of an a2a intercooler.

I have an all aluminum Saab a2a in my d pillar with a small 9puller fan venting out the bottom of the pillar. The fan is switched.

At idle ECU reads IAC at 158. Cant remember exact temp. Outside temp was like 70. Van was somewhat heat soaked.

Should turning on the fan reduce IACs while at idle over a period of 5-8 minutes? I didnot time it as I was chatting on the phone on the side of the road.

Two degrees drop! Does that sound reasonable to anyone?

I was gobsmacked.
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! Reply with quote

dkoesyncro wrote:
I had this intercooler similar mounting too! I built a rounded floor in the D pillar, hoping it'd cool the exhaust as well. It took 9 wks to get it from china

I had a horrible resonance with this IC, I suspect it was the fin design. Very minimal interface, very low to nil pressure drop. I later built a custom one from the TDI and it performed really well and quieter.


To clarify, the Renault style IC was noticably noisy? Do you have any photos of what you replaced it with? How's performance with your custom one? Thanks for the input.
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 12:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! Reply with quote

beach_creature wrote:
Could it be something to do with the mod to the IC for your MAP sensor?


I hadn't thought of that, but if all else fails I could move the MAP to a post-IC intake pipe. But based on dkoesyncro's response perhaps some of these IC's are noisy for this application? Thanks for the response.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! Reply with quote

I had this intercooler similar mounting too! I built a rounded floor in the D pillar, hoping it'd cool the exhaust as well. It took 9 wks to get it from china

I had a horrible resonance with this IC, I suspect it was the fin design. Very minimal interface, very low to nil pressure drop. I later built a custom one from the TDI and it performed really well and quieter.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! Reply with quote

Could it be something to do with the mod to the IC for your MAP sensor?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! Reply with quote

So I just did the Renault intercooler in the D pillar. I haven't run the full range of tests, but I'm definitely seeing lower intake air temps based on my normal driving around town.

I'll give a quick description, and then below I'll describe an issue I'm having that some of you might be able to help me with.

This van is a syncro with an ALH motor mounted in the 15 degree orientation using the original Fast Forward kit. The motor is the stock tune as far as I can tell. The conversion was done in 2005 in by a reputable shop in Oregon. When I got the van the stock intercooler was mounted on the passenger side of the engine compartment, about 2 inches from the motor nestled in and around some nice hot coolant hoses. With that setup, I would get IAT read by Scangauge in the high 100's in summer mountain driving, with some spikes over 200 degrees.

With the new Renault setup, the highest I've seen climbing a mountain in cooler spring weather has been around 125, about 30-40 degrees below what the stock setup would do on the same hill.

To mount the IC I cut a hole in the floor of the D pillar and mounted an 8" puller fan under the intercooler. I bent some aluminum sheet material to mount the IC in place and isolate the IC air flow and route it downward. I also put an alumnimum shield under the fan for flying rocks. I welded on the mounting plate for the MAP sensor directly to the IC.

A few photos...

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So the issue I'm having is some noise on heavy pulls at max boost, 10-16 psi. The noise wasn't there before, it started with the addition of this new intercooler and re-locating the intake. It almost sounds like a belt shrieking, or intense air rushing. Happens mostly in 3rd gear and only when I get on the throttle, pushing 12 psi or more, under load for sure. Scangauge looks like this to get the noise:
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It goes away immediately when I let up on throttle.
I've isolated the noise to the Renault intercooler. I eliminated all other causes: I've swapped intakes from K/N type to Donaldson, (also no intake!), pressure tested the boost hoses and intercooler, ran without the accessory belts, all to no effect. The turbo is fairly new with little play in the shaft, feels solid to me.
The only way I was able to make the noise go away was to plumb a bypass around the intercooler.

It almost sounds like a fin or something internal could be loose, causing a resonance, or an obstruction, or I don't know. I'm open to suggestions. I bought this a while ago from some Ebay seller, a Chinese special I'm sure. Just curious if anyone else finds it annoyingly noisy under load?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: Air to air intercooler in D pillar ideas please! Reply with quote

Quote:
IMO one of the greatest challenges when going with an air to air intercooler is that it eliminates the use of the d-pillar for intake air. If aux oil cooler is placed on the right side of the engine and intercooler on the left there's no easy place to get clean cool intake air.


Gotta figure out how to grab intake air from upstream of the Hx. All my oil cooler kits provide that. If it seems impossible or impractical, you just haven't worked the problem enough.
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