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Desertbusman
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2005
Posts: 14655
Location: Arizona
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 Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Oil Phil-M wrote: |
| I have the crankcase vent line going to one carb (after passing through a secondary aftermarket vent box) and the charcoal canister to the other. Drilled and tapped the top plate of the air filters and added a 90* brass fitting. |
I split the breather line to keep both carbs operating in the same exact enviornment. And would/will do the same thing to the fuel vapor recovery line. But wheather it's a single line or split to both carbs, going into the air filters works great. I also have the booster line feeding evenly off of both sides. Just trying to keep all aspects of both cylinder banks equal and synced.
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udidwht
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Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| VWCOOL wrote: |
Evap emissions systems required closed air cleaners.
Webers don't have closed air cleaners. Unless the OP wants to design and make a closed intake system, like standard, including various 'blocks' on the intake tract to keep evap emissions from the carbs' float bowls under control, a charcoal canister CANNOT be installed with Webers.
End of story.
Nice idea but be happy with the fact that like all older classic cars, your Kombi has already paid its debt to society by NOT being replaced by a newer car with resources locked up in it  |
There's nothing "closed" about a carbed VW aircleaner, it's always open to the environment via the snorkel and bowl fumes are free to escape if they want to. From what I can tell the OP isn't trying to modify or improve the system in a way that it prevents all hydrocarbons from escaping into the atmosphere, he just wants to trap the gas stink from the tank vent when parked and charcoal does that. Nothing comes out of the exhaust hose on the canister until air is forced through it when the engine is running, get it close to the carb throat so it can be sucked up and it'll be fine.
| udidwht wrote: |
| If his set up is anything close to the following it's more than just plumbing the canister into an air cleaner. |
How so?, I see a canister and a purge air supply coming off the top of the shroud (odd), assuming the vapor system is already connected to the canister all it needs is a hose from the canister to an aircleaner lid with a bit of copper pot scrubber stuffed into the hose as a flame trap. |
And what about the gas/fuel stink from the carbs when shutdown? Not to mention these carbs will get fuel on the outside of them as well.
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1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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all that matters is that the fumes are vented into the carb when the engine is preferably above idle. You need a flame trap in the line or inbetween or vent outside the filter and use the filter as the flame trap. As I showed someone else today.
This is not a backfire whether you see flames or hear pop - pop. It is a rich overrun condition that causes explosions inside the muffler or external to it.
This is a backfire and you don't want it finding a way into the canister, crankcase or fuel tank. carb backfire: http://blogs.discovery.com/velocity/2012/06/one-picture-says-it-all-at-the-graveyard-carz-shop.html
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
all that matters is that the fumes are vented into the carb when the engine is preferably above idle. You need a flame trap in the line or inbetween or vent outside the filter and use the filter as the flame trap. As I showed someone else today.
This is not a backfire whether you see flames or hear pop - pop. It is a rich overrun condition that causes explosions inside the muffler or external to it.
This is a backfire and you don't want it finding a way into the canister, crankcase or fuel tank. carb backfire: http://blogs.discovery.com/velocity/2012/06/one-picture-says-it-all-at-the-graveyard-carz-shop.html |
It's also way out of tune. If your backfiring like that you've got issue/s elsewhere. If one is truly looking to rid the vehicle of gas fumes it'll take more than plumbing just the can into the air cleaner.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51150
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| udidwht wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
| VWCOOL wrote: |
Evap emissions systems required closed air cleaners.
Webers don't have closed air cleaners. Unless the OP wants to design and make a closed intake system, like standard, including various 'blocks' on the intake tract to keep evap emissions from the carbs' float bowls under control, a charcoal canister CANNOT be installed with Webers.
End of story.
Nice idea but be happy with the fact that like all older classic cars, your Kombi has already paid its debt to society by NOT being replaced by a newer car with resources locked up in it |
There's nothing "closed" about a carbed VW aircleaner, it's always open to the environment via the snorkel and bowl fumes are free to escape if they want to. From what I can tell the OP isn't trying to modify or improve the system in a way that it prevents all hydrocarbons from escaping into the atmosphere, he just wants to trap the gas stink from the tank vent when parked and charcoal does that. Nothing comes out of the exhaust hose on the canister until air is forced through it when the engine is running, get it close to the carb throat so it can be sucked up and it'll be fine.
| udidwht wrote: |
| If his set up is anything close to the following it's more than just plumbing the canister into an air cleaner. |
How so?, I see a canister and a purge air supply coming off the top of the shroud (odd), assuming the vapor system is already connected to the canister all it needs is a hose from the canister to an aircleaner lid with a bit of copper pot scrubber stuffed into the hose as a flame trap. |
And what about the gas/fuel stink from the carbs when shutdown? Not to mention these carbs will get fuel on the outside of them as well. |
You can't get it all using the system the way it is, it's very crude but at the same time functional and completely passive and autonomous, it does what it's designed to do well. This thread has gone far off track from simply venting the existing system in a similar manner to stock but using aftermarket carbs and aircleaners. If you want to catch it all you'll end up with a clusterf*ck of vacuum lines, solenoids and valves controlling every possible route of escape for a molecule of gasoline fume, alot like the rats nest under the hood of a late carbed Mazda pickup for example, sort of detracts from the simple functionality of the ACVW doesn't it?
You guys are overthinking this, the OP wanted to know if the existing system could be connected to an aftermarket aircleaner, I don't think he's trying to meet 2014 emission requirements, he's simply trying to use the existing system in a similar manner to the way it was designed.
| Derek Cobb wrote: |
| I think the old style oil-bath air cleaners actually do make a closed system as the vapors would be separated from the atmosphere by the oil in the air cleaner. |
The canister line attaches outside the filter media in the same space the inlet snorkel feeds, the only way it can store up fumes is if they are heavier than air and don't reach the level of the snorkel, same with the later paper filters.
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VWCOOL
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Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 1821
Location: Down under
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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There are open float bowls just inside those air cleaners. The air cleaners are aerodynamically transparent so the fuel in the float bowls evaporates into the engine bay every time the engine is used
Connect the purge line wherever you like, kids, but it's not gunna do anything until the carbies are boxed-in as per OE
Last edited by VWCOOL on Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51150
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| VWCOOL wrote: |
| boxed-in as per OE |
OE what?
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Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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VWCOOL
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Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 1821
Location: Down under
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| oops double post |
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VWCOOL
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Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 1821
Location: Down under
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| VWCOOL wrote: |
| boxed-in as per OE |
OE what? |
this thread is about a Kombi with a (now disabled) OE (Original Equipment)evaporative emissions control system
Last edited by VWCOOL on Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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so here is a flame arrester solution from Holley. Notice the vents are on the OUTSIDE of the aircleaner. FWIW - that Porsche is probably not out of tune. He isn't running anything that leans him in an overrun. I tried to show what a backfire is and isn't so what ever solution someone turns to doesn't destroy their bus, be it simple or complex. The point was fire arrester.
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51150
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| VWCOOL wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
| VWCOOL wrote: |
| boxed-in as per OE |
OE what? |
this thread is about a Kombi with a (now disabled) OE (Original Equipment)evaporative emissions control system |
But it's not disabled, he's just looking for a place to ditch the canister purge when running.
I still don't get the boxed in part.
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Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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VWCOOL
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 1821
Location: Down under
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| VWCOOL wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
| VWCOOL wrote: |
| boxed-in as per OE |
OE what? |
this thread is about a Kombi with a (now disabled) OE (Original Equipment)evaporative emissions control system |
But it's not disabled, he's just looking for a place to ditch the canister purge when running.
I still don't get the boxed in part. |
yes it is disabled/ineffective as the OE intake tract has been removed to install twin Webers with open air cleaners
The entire intake tract of a standard carb-fed car of the 1970s/80s (in this case, the Kombi) is carefully designed so it doesn't allow fuel vapour (evaporative emissions) from the carbs' hot float bowls to escape to atmosphere.
These systems usually include totally enclosed air cleaner(s) and a single air entry point with a vacuum-operated flap that seals (or, almost seals) the intake tract from the atmosphere when the engine is not running.
That's what I mean by boxing-in.
Instead, these volatiles are collected by, and stored in, a canister to be drawn in and consumed by the engine the next time it is operated
EFI cars are far simpler from an evaporative emissions standpoint as they have a just-about totally sealed fuel system with no open bowls of fuel to evaporate... as those two Webers do |
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51150
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| VWCOOL wrote: |
The entire intake tract of a standard carb-fed car of the 1970s/80s (in this case, the Kombi) is carefully designed so it doesn't allow fuel vapour (evaporative emissions) from the carbs' hot float bowls to escape to atmosphere.
These systems usually include totally enclosed air cleaner(s) and a single air entry point with a vacuum-operated flap that seals (or, almost seals) the intake tract from the atmosphere when the engine is not running.
That's what I mean by boxing-in. |
That may be the case down under but in North America (and Europe where M157 was sometimes installed) the only flap in the aircleaner controls the preheat air and regardless of what position it's in the snorkel is still open to free air whether through the snout or through the preheat pipe, early aircleaners also included a flap to promote flow through the crankcase ventilation system but that one still does not completely block the inlet, static vapors are still free to escape and assault the ozone layer or whatever those miscreant hydrocarbons do in thier free time.
Many mid 70's+ US made carbed cars included a throttle operated or solenoid activated valve on the float bowl vent that closed off the bowl to free air and diverted it to the charcoal canister but ACVW's never had anything that fancy.
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madmike
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Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:47 am Post subject: |
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I have IDF's an don't have fumes?? No pollution crap ether 
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