Air Conditioner System Upgrades: Hoses, condenser, etc.

cellerdoor · Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:48 am Post subject:

Thanks for the comments Syncro, I don't have a lot of knowledge to offer this forum which has been my lifeline for this van, so I figure I would over-document this install since most of these components are inaccessible and it would have been good to get a visual for planning. I also think my compressor fittings are going to just miss the lid, or require I chew out 1/2 inch from the foam under the lid, but if not the rotation seems plausible except for the oil fill plug being sideways.

nevadaesh, I'm going to use this stuff to wrap the piping that's not over the drip pan. You can find it at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. Way less messy and removable:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I also pondered reusing my expansion valve and removed it, acetone soaked it, hot water flushed it and thought it was good. I also bought a new one since they are $20 to compare. After studying them I think I'm going to use new since the insides of the old one just seems "worn out". The new one is freshly machined and high quality and should seal better with new threads and O-Ring surfaces. Not sure about this but would think that a smooth surface in this valve would assist in the "expansion" function from liquid to gas.

I cant figure out what that mesh is doing either except protecting the fan from debris or preventing condensate coming off the evap. from being pulled into the fan or miss the drip pan. I'm going to put it back as it was.

If you decide to put a Trinary switch in later make sure you put the switch port in the hose now. Im going to install it but not wire it unless I figure out my wiring.
_________________
1986 Westy

Alaric.H · Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:16 am Post subject:

That looked like fun. I have a 30 pound bottle of redtek here if you need any.
You will only need 15 ounces so no cost since you did such a great write up and chart.

ng · Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:44 am Post subject:

Great thread! I have the same AC in my 86, and am in the planning stages of replacing everything as well, so I really appreciate all the information here.

In the photo below I think you will find the g/w wire goes to the idle stabilizer control unit. However, in my van the rest of that harness was not hooked up when I got it, so if you are able to trace it back I would really like to know where it is all supposed to plug in.

MarkWard · Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:34 pm Post subject:

The oil fill plug can be in any orientation, it does not need to be on top. You just need to be sure the proper amount of oil is added before you install it. Leave the line caps in place during the install to keep the oil from running out the fitting during the install.

Moderator Edit: According to Sanden, Do NOT rotate the fill plug any more than 90* off from being straight up, lubrication of the pump will be adversly affected if you do.
_________________
☮️

Howesight · Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:43 pm Post subject:

MarkWard · Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:59 pm Post subject:

When I installed the vintage air, I used the above diagram to replicate my own relay system. I used the same relays they use for fog light kits. Each supports two loads and has a mounting bracket. Basically, my rad fan comes on low when the compressor is turned on with the switch. When the pressure gets to a point, the trinary switch turns the rad fan on medium, and in the case of super high pressure, the trinary kicks the rad fan on high. I am using the stock high speed rad fan relay and strip fuse for high but triggering the relay with the trinary switch. It was easier to follow the above diagram and replicate than to start from scratch.

I believe the if the rad fan is on super high in stock trim, the ac compressor is also turned off. I don't have that feature.
_________________
☮️

cellerdoor · Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:10 pm Post subject:

I appreciate the electrical help since I cant find any diagram in the Bentley that matches my system. What's sticking out of the engine bay and in the evap cabinet exactly matches the 1984-1985 wiring diagram above, but the fuse box/relay layout exactly matches the early 1986 (97.67).

I still have the original rad fan, I just cleaned it up and put a new resistor in behind the driver headlight:

I'm fairly sure its three speeds but assumed since there are three connections to the resistor.

I have to replace my grommets and hose clamps throughout the van this weekend. Ill create a system map for the ac system and post it.
_________________
1986 Westy

MarkWard · Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:20 am Post subject:

Because I was starting from scratch, I should mention, I rewired my rad fan switch to complete grounds to my radiator fan relays. This simplified the wiring of the trinary switch because I could use it to supply grounds rather than power.

In practice, relays don't care if you energize them with power or ground. As well, while not always possible, switches and relays last longer when they are on the ground side of a circuit. This allows the consumer to absorb the small arc, when the circuit is interrupted.
_________________
☮️

Howesight · Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:52 am Post subject:

Re: Cellardoor's comment:

"I'm fairly sure its three speeds but assumed since there are three connections to the resistor."

You are correct that the resistor you have supports three speeds. However, the mechanism is that the resistor only provides two levels of resistance and the highest rad fan speed is provided by direct connection to the 12V source. The resistor unit actually has two resistors and the rad fan switch can connect to either one of the resistors or a connection to both the resistors in series.
_________________
'86 Syncro Westy SVX

cellerdoor · Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:52 pm Post subject:

got some time today to study the vans AC wiring. This schematic is how its connected:

There is a bundle of wires that runs from the evap housing down under the van to the front which contains the wiring from the temp sensor (2 grey), fan resistor (three yellow) and power wire (red). The red power wire from the compressor joins this bundle but not sure if it splices in. The compressor wire is on top and main bundle below it:

The back of the AC controls on the dash seem to have the three yellow wires from the evap resistor, a power wire (but its now black with red stripe), two green wires (which I think are the two grey wires from the temp sensor) and two more yellow wires which go to a 8 pin connector to the left of the fuse block.

Back of AC control which has a fan speed knob (three position) and a second control for min to max AC:

8 pin connector where the two new yellow wires go to from the AC control.

The other 6 wires from the 8 pin connector has two grounds, and four wires that head to the front of the van grouped together. Still trying to find out where these other 4 wires go.

I also did find the 899641 relay which is for the rad fan.

I also had a white/green wire which connects to the compressor power wire but lost it coming out of the passenger engine bay into the body. Doesn't seem to show up anywhere.

Make any sense?

Installing the hoses tomorrow.
_________________
1986 Westy

Howesight · Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:44 pm Post subject:

Here is some guidance, I hope.

1. The green and white connector attached to the compressor is most likely intended to provide power to the idle speed controller to increase idle speed when the compressor is operating. My guess is that your system used a fully independent system featuring an idle-up vacuum switch. If the engine does not stall when you operate your AC compressor, you can leave this for later. Alternatively, you can splice it into the wiring to your power steering pressure sensor, which will then bump up idle slightly when the compressor is powered on.

2. The two grey wires from your electronic evaporator temp sensor would normally connect to an amplifier which then would send a signal to a relay to switch the compressor on and off. Look for the amplifier. It would not likely be any larger than, say, a deck of cards. All it does is sense the resistance of the thermistor probe in your evaporator, add the resistance from your rotary temp switch, and then decide yes/no to power the compressor relay. If you can't find your amplifier, you might be able to get one at the pick and pull. Easiest ones to access that I know of are in Toyota 4runners and pickups, 1986 to 1995. After 1995, they went to digital control, so that will not work for you. For testing purposes, you can simply use a simple switch to supply power to the compressor.

3. Check which of the terminals on your rad fan resistor give the medium and high impedance. The highest impedance yields the lowest fan speed. You need to connect a relay (30 amp will do) to the high impedance terminals on the resistor and control the relay by the "AC on" switch. This means that any time the AC is switched on, regardless whether the compressor is powered, the low speed rad fan will be on and running. This does not affect the circuit that operates your rad fan when the thermo-switch on your rad senses the "switch on" temperature. Although both the rad thermo-switch and your AC system can turn on the rad fan, they do so completely independently.

4. If you want to use the trinary switch feature that can switch your rad fan on to medium speed, then you wire the power supply terminals of a separate relay to the LOW impedance terminals of the rad fan resistor. You then wire your control for that relay to a 12V source and through the trinary switch and then to ground.

5. Remember that your trinary switch has three separate switches in it. One is a low pressure switch that opens at about 30PSI. (The high side location after the condenser but before the evaporator should never go this low unless there is a problem, hence this switch). The high pressure switch probably opens around 350 to 400 psi. Again, at this pressure, there has to be a problem (eg a blockage) so the trinary switch disconnects power to the compressor. Finally, the "medium fan speed" switch closes when line pressure reaches, say, 300 psi. The purpose is to get more air through the condenser to increase heat removal in the condenser. This enhances the cooling power of your system (especially at low or no speeds) but also keeps compressor head pressures down for longer compressor life, which is why the trinary switch approach is not just a luxury. One more comment: Old systems used three separate pressure switches for these functions. The trinary switch eliminated two additional possible leakage points and reduced wiring complexity. (If you want old-school, you can still use separate switches.)

6. Your trinary switch likely came with a diagram indicating which leads connect to which of the three switches described above. For the high an low pressure switches, simply connect them in series with each other and in series with the power wire going to the compressor. This ensures that in a high or a low pressure condition, the compressor clutch will not be energized and your compressor will not run in those damaging conditions.

7. About relays. They typically will have two large gauge terminals and two small gauge terminals. The small gauge terminals connect to an electro-magnetic solenoid that physically connects to a switch that controls whether the two large terminals are connected or not. There are two basic kinds - - normally open, and normally closed, which is self-explanatory. You can buy either kind, in a variety of current capacities, at you FLAPS, meaning you are not enslaved to any VW supplier. Having said that, however, VanCafe, GoWesty, Bus Depot etc, do have good prices and good service, so if you can wait for the shipping, they will be fine.

8. When you are done, make a wiring diagram (unlike me - - Doh!) for ease of repair later.
_________________
'86 Syncro Westy SVX

cellerdoor · Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:08 am Post subject:

Thanks again Howesight,

I'm now sure of two things:

1. The trinary switch integration is quickly becoming a dash-off requirement since access to anything behind the fuse cluster is inaccessible, and it appears I would need to get to this area for any mod.

2. I'm seriously over my head with the wiring. Shocked

I'm going to install the switch port w/Schrader in the hose at the dryer (driver wheel well) for the "future" trinary switch, and when I do the dash off cleanup ill add this to the work list. I probably should also make sure the factory system and wiring is functioning before hacking into it.
_________________
1986 Westy

cellerdoor · Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:49 am Post subject:

Snowed in today so I'm prepping the equipment for installation.

The new hose is much smaller than the old. Lighter and more flexible:

I also like the EZ clip system. The cage keeps the hose from slipping off the fitting and the two ear clamps bind it down over two O-Rings.

Everything makes a solid click when its finished so you know its on:

Put the new expansion valve on the evap. and then the hose fittings. Ill attach the hoses when the evap is in place in the van:

Insulated to keep condensate from dripping into the cabinet. I overdid it a little but you get 30 feet of this stuff for $8:

Even put the fittings on the dryer. The switch port is for the future trinary switch.

The best thing about this EZ clip hose system is that you can attach all of the fittings to the equipment on the bench to make sure they are clean, oiled, proper O-Ring alignment and well tightened (except for the condenser which is on the van), plus you can run the hose through the van without fittings on it which is much easier.

In the "for what its worth" category I went back and looked at the hose failure that started me down this path. Here's the section that burst (condenser to compressor hose):

Here's the inside of that section. The inner lining is pitted and tacky, and there was a long interior split that went through the hose as far as I could see. The hoses in general seemed to have cracked from the inside.

After seeing the hose condition up close I cant imagine re-using the old hoses if you want a reliable system. They really don't look that bad from the outside.

I also determined that the 90 degree rabbit ear hose to compressor connection wont work (hits the engine lid past the foam)) so I will be spinning the compressor 90 degrees so that the fittings will shoot off to the drivers side. Too blizzardy today to work in the garage.
_________________
1986 Westy

Howesight · Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:17 pm Post subject:

Great work, Nevadaesh. Nice pics too. Keep it up!
_________________
'86 Syncro Westy SVX

cellerdoor · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:48 am Post subject:

Nice weather this weekend and made some progress:

Flipped the compressor 90 degrees so the rabbit ears/fittings wouldn't hit the engine lid. Fits nicely this way and allows me to run the discharge line directly into the cabinet by reversing the direction. I also ran the line from the dryer back through the engine bay directly into the cabinet. No more hoses in the rear wheel well:

Dryer fit well but it was shorter than the original:

Oiled the fan and replaced the foam strips with EPDM. Cleaned and straightened the coil and installed the new speakers:

Lines and speaker wires waiting on the closet re-installment:

Now the holdup is the closet. The fake wood paper was coming apart so the wife ordered some graphics to be applied on the back side of the cabinet. We are going to open the curtain here and have the graphic visible from the outside. After these come in I can install the closet/evap/evap cabinet and get this ready for charging.

Had question:

Does it matter where you add AC oil for the system? The compressor came full so I need about 3 ounces for the rest of the components. I was just going to put it in the line at the evap. before buttoning it up or at the discharge side of the compressor.
_________________
1986 Westy

Howesight · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:58 am Post subject:

I think adding your "line oil" at the evaporator is probably a good idea. The Vanagon system is so long with so much hose that this is a good approach. As the compressor sends the oil it is already charged with through the system, it will be sucking in the oil from the evaporator area. Eventually, it will all be spread uniformly.

Keep up the good work!
_________________
'86 Syncro Westy SVX

nevadaesh · Samba Member Joined: May 08, 2013 Posts: 214

So, I'm still at it and getting to the point of trying to understand the Trinary switch (TS) thing. Talked to NA and he said that I could add one to the drier at the left port in this pic:

I have the same single wire compressor as shown in Cellerdoors pic below, so then, and this is where is gets really fuzzy, George at NA said that if I can follow that lead to the front and splice the TS into it, that would be all I would have to do for the high/low pressure switch. I really don't think it's that easy, but when I get that far I'll be calling him back for clarification.

[quote="cellerdoor

[/quote]

I think at this point, the electrical point, I'm in way over my head. I have a lot of studying of Cellerdoors thread, page 3, before I move forward. Howesight has a lot of insight, lots of head scratching there for me. At least I can get physical part done.
_________________
'85 Westy
'07 FJC
'02 Camry

JudoJeff · Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:56 am Post subject: Save some $

Love this writeup! I intend to do just this on my Westy in May or June. I'm following your lead.

To save people some cash, I just purchased an Eaton tool kit with shipping for $78 on EBay from hcmwholesale. Includes pliers ($85 value) cutter w/ extra blades, ($35), 10 cages (in 4 sizes=40) 20 clips (in 4 sizes=80), plus O-rings.

I'll be going to hose warehouse for the fittings and GH134 hose.

I picked up a new parallel flow condenser from Nostalgic Air part #54-1622 for $102 with shipping. VW suppliers want $250 for one.

Question: What are bump O-rings?
_________________
________________________________________
1989 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Burned up on 7/31/16.
1987 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Bostig & Rebuilt, sold
1986 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Bostig Sold May 10, 2021
1999 Ford GTRV Westfalia camper (30% bigger Westy layout)

cellerdoor · Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:10 pm Post subject:

The bump O-Rings are the tiny little black O-rings that go on each hose fitting barb prior to inserting it into the hose (the clamps then tighten down on these).

I ordered the same number of bump O-rings as clamps, but then when the shipment arrived each fitting already comes with the bump rings so I ended up not needing them.
_________________
1986 Westy

JudoJeff · Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:20 pm Post subject:

Thanks, cellerdoor, I had no idea.

There's also a pair of the crimping pliers by itself for $22 on Ebay.
_________________
________________________________________
1989 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Burned up on 7/31/16.
1987 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Bostig & Rebuilt, sold
1986 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Bostig Sold May 10, 2021
1999 Ford GTRV Westfalia camper (30% bigger Westy layout)


Hello! Log in or Register \| Help \| Donate \| Buy Shirts	See all banner ads \| Advertise on TheSamba.com

Air Conditioner System Upgrades: Hoses, condenser, etc.
Page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 ... 11, 12, 13 Next Jump to:

	Forum Index -> Vanagon	All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time Page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 ... 11, 12, 13 Next Jump to:
Page 3 of 13