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New Build Thread: Subaru 5MT AWD into Syncro Vanagon
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: New Build Thread: Subaru 5MT AWD into Syncro Vanagon Reply with quote

Powbum5 wrote:
Sorry if I missed this, but can the Subarugears Syncro Trans be used with a 1.8t conversion, or will it just work with a Subaru engine?

Ben
87 Syncro Westy 1.8t


It can be made to. Todd at Subarugears has gotten really good at designing made to order engine adaptors and flywheels to hook a variety of engines to the Subaru transmission. But, I think with Andrew's good work on using the Audi transmission with a reversed 1.8T, I would go that route for a 1.8T trans upgrade.

Dave
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: New Build Thread: Subaru 5MT AWD into Syncro Vanagon Reply with quote

Powbum5 wrote:
Sorry if I missed this, but can the Subarugears Syncro Trans be used with a 1.8t conversion, or will it just work with a Subaru engine?

Ben
87 Syncro Westy 1.8t


Ben, you would need an adapter plate, clutch and flywheel to use this transaxle with a non Subaru power plant.

I do have a question about the output shaft. How far do the splines fit up into the driveshaft drive flange? I can see one set screw in the picture to secure it to the shaft. Thank you. mark
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:15 pm    Post subject: Re: New Build Thread: Subaru 5MT AWD into Syncro Vanagon Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
Powbum5 wrote:
Sorry if I missed this, but can the Subarugears Syncro Trans be used with a 1.8t conversion, or will it just work with a Subaru engine?

Ben
87 Syncro Westy 1.8t


Ben, you would need an adapter plate, clutch and flywheel to use this transaxle with a non Subaru power plant.

I do have a question about the output shaft. How far do the splines fit up into the driveshaft drive flange? I can see one set screw in the picture to secure it to the shaft. Thank you. mark


Hi Mark,

The output shaft is long and it goes through most of the length of the flange. That actually isn't a set screw. The flange is secured with a roll-pin just like Subaru did with the right and left output shafts. This design was chosen so that the shaft and flange could be trimmed and made more compact for use on modified Type 1 Beetle chassis, too.

Dave
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rs4-380
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: New Build Thread: Subaru 5MT AWD into Syncro Vanagon Reply with quote

D Clymer wrote:

At this point, I'm not sure if I will be following through with a running and driving vehicle, or selling a first kit to an interested customer and letting them do the honors.


put me on the definitley interested list.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: New Build Thread: Subaru 5MT AWD into Syncro Vanagon Reply with quote

D Clymer wrote:
Powbum5 wrote:
Sorry if I missed this, but can the Subarugears Syncro Trans be used with a 1.8t conversion, or will it just work with a Subaru engine?

Ben
87 Syncro Westy 1.8t


It can be made to. Todd at Subarugears has gotten really good at designing made to order engine adaptors and flywheels to hook a variety of engines to the Subaru transmission. But, I think with Andrew's good work on using the Audi transmission with a reversed 1.8T, I would go that route for a 1.8T trans upgrade.

Dave



Thanks David! I'm a big fan of your work as well!


If I am following this correctly, you are using a stock Syncro front diff and a stock length and flanged Syncro driveshaft.
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:07 pm    Post subject: Re: New Build Thread: Subaru 5MT AWD into Syncro Vanagon Reply with quote

xoo00oox wrote:



Thanks David! I'm a big fan of your work as well!


If I am following this correctly, you are using a stock Syncro front diff and a stock length and flanged Syncro driveshaft.


Yes, stock Syncro front diff (the one you sent me, actually) with the viscous coupling replaced with a solid shaft. I will be using basically a stock Syncro flanged driveshaft. There is a slight difference in distance between front and rear flanges, but I compensated for this by using a Van-Cafe sourced slip-yolk Syncro driveshaft. I like the idea of using an Audi Quattro driveshaft and may experiment with this if I get tired of trying to tune out vibrations with the Syncro shaft. One of my friends just parted out his Audi S8, and I had him save the driveshaft for me. It's too long, but at least it can be shortened to work.

Dave
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:09 pm    Post subject: Re: New Build Thread: Subaru 5MT AWD into Syncro Vanagon Reply with quote

rs4-380 wrote:
D Clymer wrote:

At this point, I'm not sure if I will be following through with a running and driving vehicle, or selling a first kit to an interested customer and letting them do the honors.


put me on the definitley interested list.


Sounds good. I'll keep you in mind when I get close to having the last details taken care of. Smile

Dave
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supergeorg
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 7:44 am    Post subject: Re: New Build Thread: Subaru 5MT AWD into Syncro Vanagon Reply with quote

Regarding my project I will start with a normal syncro transmission attached via a RJES bell house to my new EJ25. Basically because I have a good syncro transmission at hand.

But if I am allowed to dream I would like to have a complete transaxle which
1. Can handle the torque and heat from bigger engines
2. reliable brand,
3. spare parts readily available
4. good price quality ratio
5. different gears to alternate
6. granny gear and
7. diff locks for heavier off road

That would make it to my personal "Swiss Syncro army knife."

1 to 5 already done by Subaru and Subarugears.

6. As Todd Triebler mentions earlier in one of his comments there are dual range Subaru transmission with the capability to adapt. Is that really the case? Is that something subarugears is working on right now?

7. I had a look around in the net and found following differential with combines limited slip with 100% diff-lock. AuburnGear ECTED. Unfortunately those are not available for Subaru. But at least it means that there are out there. And with a grouped purchase...who knows maybe they will produce them.

Just dreaming

Frederic
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 8:37 am    Post subject: Re: New Build Thread: Subaru 5MT AWD into Syncro Vanagon Reply with quote

Frederic if you are looking at heavier off-road, to the point where you actually NEED the rear diff lock, then the Subaru transmission wont be for you. Even if Subagears gets the dual range transmission the final low gearing on low range won't be as low as the existing G gear in the syncro transmission.

HOWEVER, most of us van folks are mentally comparing the performance of locked rear to open rear, because that's what we have. An LSD with a reasonably low gear will go 95% of the places you'd actually want to go camping. Just watch any number of Subaru Outback offroading videos on youtube to get a general idea of what a Subagears syncro could do. What you will have to give up is the ability to do the upper trails at syncrofest and other intense rock-crawling adventures.

Just some food for thought.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:38 am    Post subject: Re: New Build Thread: Subaru 5MT AWD into Syncro Vanagon Reply with quote

What is the status of this project? Has anyone completed a awd Syncro using a subarugears trans? I am working on a svx engine conversion and have a subaru trans and a locking syncro trans. The subaru 5 spd would be nice with the svx but is it worth the money and not having low gear and a locker. I also have a locking front diff. Wondering if there will be a subarugears black Friday sale and should i go that route.
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:00 pm    Post subject: Re: New Build Thread: Subaru 5MT AWD into Syncro Vanagon Reply with quote

FrankenSubySyncro wrote:
What is the status of this project? Has anyone completed a awd Syncro using a subarugears trans? I am working on a svx engine conversion and have a subaru trans and a locking syncro trans. The subaru 5 spd would be nice with the svx but is it worth the money and not having low gear and a locker. I also have a locking front diff. Wondering if there will be a subarugears black Friday sale and should i go that route.


2017 is the year where several people have finally put a few Subaru AWD Vanagons on the road. The two that I'm aware of, and that I supplied shift linkage parts for, modified the transverse member to gain create clearance for the front of the transmission. From what I've heard, these two vans are running well. One of the owners told me that it feels just like his wife's Subaru.

The Subaru AWD trans is a good choice if the loss of the granny gear and rear locker are acceptable to you. It's important to keep in mind, though, that 4.86:1 is the lowest final drive you can use, and that the Subaru 1st gear is 3.45 or 3.54:1 compared to the 3.78:1 VW 1st gear. So it wouldn't be right for a van with tall tires.

Cheers,

Dave
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: New Build Thread: Subaru 5MT AWD into Syncro Vanagon Reply with quote

Can someone lay out a parts and supplier list for what is required to make the Subaru AWD trans work in a Syncro van with stock front diff?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: New Build Thread: Subaru 5MT AWD into Syncro Vanagon Reply with quote

D Clymer wrote:
It's important to keep in mind, though, that 4.86:1 is the lowest final drive you can use, and that the Subaru 1st gear is 3.45 or 3.54:1 compared to the 3.78:1 VW 1st gear. So it wouldn't be right for a van with tall tires.
Dave


I mean, that depends on the engine. I have a friend who had a EG33 paired to a 3.9:1 final drive Subagears 2WD, and it ran fine with 27" tires and returned over 20 mpg.
However, because he has a Quaife as well and is adventurous he was tackling serious trails and the clutch burning was too much trying to keep speed low in 1st. He switched the R&P to either 4.11 or 4.44:1 (can't recall) and reports high teens mpg and much better hill climbing, still with the 27" tires. Both of those are still well below 4.86:1. I would think going with taller tires at 4.86 is more of an engine issue than a 1st gear speed issue, unless you are trying to do the kind of stuff you want a VW transaxle for anyways.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:57 pm    Post subject: Re: New Build Thread: Subaru 5MT AWD into Syncro Vanagon Reply with quote

Here's to hoping for a dual-range, reversed Subarugears transmission! (with planetary reduction for 2.72:1 ratio? Very Happy )
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: New Build Thread: Subaru 5MT AWD into Syncro Vanagon Reply with quote

flomulgator wrote:
D Clymer wrote:
It's important to keep in mind, though, that 4.86:1 is the lowest final drive you can use, and that the Subaru 1st gear is 3.45 or 3.54:1 compared to the 3.78:1 VW 1st gear. So it wouldn't be right for a van with tall tires.
Dave


I mean, that depends on the engine. I have a friend who had a EG33 paired to a 3.9:1 final drive Subagears 2WD, and it ran fine with 27" tires and returned over 20 mpg.
However, because he has a Quaife as well and is adventurous he was tackling serious trails and the clutch burning was too much trying to keep speed low in 1st. He switched the R&P to either 4.11 or 4.44:1 (can't recall) and reports high teens mpg and much better hill climbing, still with the 27" tires. Both of those are still well below 4.86:1. I would think going with taller tires at 4.86 is more of an engine issue than a 1st gear speed issue, unless you are trying to do the kind of stuff you want a VW transaxle for anyways.


It would get moving from a stop with no problem. No worries there. But you wouldn't be able to creep up and over difficult or tight terrain and I think most people with a Syncro would still want to retain that ability - even if they are going to a more road oriented Subaru AWD system. My main intention was to point out that first gear is significantly taller in the Subaru transmission (reverse is even taller) and that should be taken into consideration. I've found that those details often get overlooked when people are considering final drive ratios.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:01 am    Post subject: Re: New Build Thread: Subaru 5MT AWD into Syncro Vanagon Reply with quote

D Clymer wrote:
flomulgator wrote:
D Clymer wrote:
It's important to keep in mind, though, that 4.86:1 is the lowest final drive you can use, and that the Subaru 1st gear is 3.45 or 3.54:1 compared to the 3.78:1 VW 1st gear. So it wouldn't be right for a van with tall tires.
Dave


I mean, that depends on the engine. I have a friend who had a EG33 paired to a 3.9:1 final drive Subagears 2WD, and it ran fine with 27" tires and returned over 20 mpg.
However, because he has a Quaife as well and is adventurous he was tackling serious trails and the clutch burning was too much trying to keep speed low in 1st. He switched the R&P to either 4.11 or 4.44:1 (can't recall) and reports high teens mpg and much better hill climbing, still with the 27" tires. Both of those are still well below 4.86:1. I would think going with taller tires at 4.86 is more of an engine issue than a 1st gear speed issue, unless you are trying to do the kind of stuff you want a VW transaxle for anyways.


It would get moving from a stop with no problem. No worries there. But you wouldn't be able to creep up and over difficult or tight terrain and I think most people with a Syncro would still want to retain that ability - even if they are going to a more road oriented Subaru AWD system. My main intention was to point out that first gear is significantly taller in the Subaru transmission (reverse is even taller) and that should be taken into consideration. I've found that those details often get overlooked when people are considering final drive ratios.



I think it’s safe to assume that anyone going this route with there van, has already ditched the factory engine. With higher power engine and more torque involved, maybe lthe higher gearing may be manageable at low speeds. Especially with the new VW and Subaru Diesel engines.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: New Build Thread: Subaru 5MT AWD into Syncro Vanagon Reply with quote

flomulgator wrote:
I have a friend who had a EG33 paired to a 3.9:1 final drive Subagears 2WD, and it ran fine with 27" tires and returned over 20 mpg.

… he was tackling serious trails and the clutch burning was too much trying to keep speed low in 1st


Burning the clutch is not what I call running fine.

The 3.9 is 20% taller than stock 4.86
His 27” tires are 6% taller than stock 25.5
And his 1st gear is either 6 (or 9%) tall depending which one

Add those up and you get 20+6+6= 32% TALL gearing.. downright ridiculous Offroad.

0cean wrote:
With higher power engine and more torque involved, maybe the higher gearing may be manageable at low speeds


I would say no. More power just burns the clutch more, as flomulgator just shared.

D Clymer wrote:
you wouldn't be able to creep up and over difficult or tight terrain and I think most people with a Syncro would still want to retain that ability


agreed. Very good job educating about the difference in 1st gear (6% tall), and tire size impact. Obviously the 5mt is not a match for FrankenSubySyncro with 29.5” tires (16% tall) and no granny. That would make his gearing 22% tall.

That is taller than running 30.5” diameter tires (20% tall) on a stock Syncro. NOBODY does that without changing to a shorter than stock ring and pinion.

The tallest gearing some people tolerate, with a syncro that still has a granny, is 16% tall. However even at 10% tall (28" tire), offroading is challenging with a granny gear.

The 5mt has no granny, it is best suited for a road car with no larger than 6% tall tires (27”), which in combination w a 6% tall 1st and no granny, means the lowest gear is 12% taller than stock. This is ok on pavement, marginal on mild dirt roads, but not for steep hills with rocks or holes . Bear in mind there is also no Locker in the 5mt, which is required for slow going when a wheel will be in the air.
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Last edited by Jon_slider on Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:11 am; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:03 am    Post subject: Re: New Build Thread: Subaru 5MT AWD into Syncro Vanagon Reply with quote

just an FYI as I'm going down this route, 4.86 R&P is offered by subarugears. this is the route I'm going.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: New Build Thread: Subaru 5MT AWD into Syncro Vanagon Reply with quote

human compass wrote:
just an FYI as I'm going down this route, 4.86 R&P is offered by subarugears. this is the route I'm going.


yes, so, make sure you keep your tires no more than 27" diameter. It will work fine on pavement.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: New Build Thread: Subaru 5MT AWD into Syncro Vanagon Reply with quote

I'm sure that there are Syncro owners that never use the G gear. Some of us just want a good AWD trail runner.

There are many 1st gear choices in the Subaru 5MT transmission. One just need to know what to look for.

The Syncro gearbox has a 1st gear of 3.78 and a 4th of 0.85

The 03 Subaru WRX gearbox has the following ratios.

1st -- 3.454
2nd -- 1.947
3rd -- 1.366
4th -- 0.972
5th -- 0.738

I think placing a 4.86 R&P in this transmission would be a good combination in a re-powered Syncro.


There is an 04 STI 6MT with the following ratios. It could be a good Vanagon option but I don't know if the Syncro option works on the 6MT.

1st -- 3.636
2nd -- 2.375
3rd -- 1.761
4th -- 1.346
5th -- 0.971
6th -- 0.756


I have not done the math on these to determine final drive with bigger tires. I'm still at least a year away from having to choose which transmission to use. I have two Syncro boxes and one is a locker. I'll likely use my locker for now but I'm really interested the the SubaruGears option and want them to be successful.
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