Warning: Bogus Late Bay Brake Shoes

[kreemoweet]

I was just checking out some new brake shoes I received recently, and tried putting together an assembly on a new backing plate. It was a massive struggle to get things together - far more so than is usually the case. I found that the holes in the shoes that hold the ends of the large return spring are spaced much too far apart. The attached photo shows a normal installation, with the red arrows showing the normal space between the spring ends and the outer edge of the web. In my case, that space is ZERO and the spring is actually jammed up against the bottom of the shoe proper.

The bad shoes are TCM #421. They are supposedly for use on 73-79 busses, equiv. VW part #211 609 537N. They were sold to me by Wolfsburg West.

I also might add, the metal thickness of the shoe base on these is an extremely chintzy 2.1 mm, and the central web is 3.0 mm, far thinner than any of my other VW shoes.

EDIT: Removed unwarranted mention of other vendors.

MORE EDIT: Also the holes in the web for the lower return spring are about half the normal size.

MORE MORE EDIT: Ron Bengry of WW has graciously authorized the return of these shoes, although not strictly obligated to do so, as described further on. He also
said he has personaly installed a set of these shoes with no problems noted, so it is not clear that these defects are present in current stock (my shoes seem to have
a mfg date from 2011).
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'67 bug: seized by the authorities
'68 bug: seized by the authorities
'71 kombi: not yet seized by the authorities

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[VDubTech]

And you're welcome for the pic. God damn that's pretty.
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First Trip in the RustyBus:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=279077&highlight=

[germansupplyscott]

S421 is the generic number for the shoes, so there could be many vendors and manufacturers using that number to cross-reference a set of brake shoes. all bus brake shoes for '74-'79 are technically also S421. fwiw i haven't seen any shoes with the issue you're referring to.

also FYI on the photo above the spring washer looks to be in the wrong place or missing. the washer goes between the head of the brake lever pin and the lever.
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SL

[Desertbusman]

Let us know what Wolfsburg West says when you let them know about the problem. Is TCM the brand that was on the box?
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71 Superbug
71 Westy

[lintbrush]

I've had some frustration getting shoes for my early bay lately. First I ordered PEX/Pagid and they sent Ideal made in China shoes from their supplier. I later ordered front shoes that were supposed to be Enduro made in US, but these too came as Ideal, made in China. BusDepot apologized and gave me an RMA no questions asked, but seems like quality shoes are getting harder to source. I ended up using them. We'll see how they hold up. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1168681.jpg
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1970 Westfalia Campmobile - SF Bay Area
https://www.instagram.com/campishome/

[kreemoweet]

[old DKP driver]

Also:
Bottom return spring is on backwards and, hub should NOT be painted
either.
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V.W.owner since 1967

[VDubTech]

I looked in the Bentley and yes, it looks like the bottom return spring is on backwards. What effect does that have on anything? Zero. Next time I have the drums off to clean and adjust the rear brakes I'll swap it around for you. As for the hub, absolutely nothing wrong with painting it and the paint also helps keep down the rust that likes to form in between the hub and drum and slowly combine the two metals into one.
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First Trip in the RustyBus:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=279077&highlight=

[kreemoweet]

If anyone's interested in a visual, the 73-79 rear shoes currently pictured here: http://www.justkampers.com/211-698-537-n-rear-brake-shoes-set-of-four-vw-t2-bay-1973-1979.html are the "bad" ones, with the misplaced upper spring holes and the tiny lower spring holes. Oddly enough, WW's illustration seems to show OK ones.

I suppose I'll have to redrill the spring holes to actually use these shoes I have. If someone could see fit to measure the hole location on a "good" shoes and report it
here, it would be most appreciated.
_________________
'67 bug: seized by the authorities
'68 bug: seized by the authorities
'71 kombi: not yet seized by the authorities

Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

[RunningRough]

For what its worth, I just recently ordered two cylinders, rear shoes and a spring kit from Bus Depot. Everything seemed to fit up fine. All nice and new looking back there now. I have no idea about the quality of the parts. I didn't even see a manufacturers name on the brake shoe packaging.

I can say the parts looked good and fit good.

Actually, now that I think of it. There was one issue.......the pins for the anti-rattle springs were too short. I just wire wheeled my old pins.
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1970 Westfalia
Passenger Interior
Dual port Type 1
Solex 34 PICT-3
Flame Thrower Dist, Vacuum Advance

1982 Vanagon Diesel L
Diesel engine replaced with 1984 VW Golf engine

[FNGRUVN]

I just installed a set of Chinese brake shoes on my '78. I didn't notice the hole spacing but I did notice the cracks in the brake lining. Chinese junk. I'm sick of it, but there's no escaping anymore.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

[SGKent]

We've been lucky to find two Pagid sets on fleabay. They don't come up often. RockAuto has some Bendix relined sets, and some Raybestos old stock sets, not many left. To be frank, quality shoes for buses are getting harder to find. Scott at German Supply sells one brand that works well if he still has some. I would get the Chinese crap off the bus and ask for a refund. This issue started back about 2005 if you read the old threads so this is nothing new. If you want to get 100% braking, use the highest quality you can find, and make a call to the vendor before ordering to make sure they aren't substituting. Lots of these places don't stock the part, they order from a wholesaler and many times even they are not told the source has changed. Meaning that say WW or BD has ordered Pagid shoes for 20 years from Wholesaler A. One day a customer complains that he ordered Pagid but got an off brand. WW or BD calls the wholesaler and finds that Pagid is no longer available. They call around and no one has it so they find a line like Enduro and start selling those. One day the same happens and they find that some cheap Chinese shoes are being used now and that the Enduro are no longer available. So call before you order - ALWAYS. Or get them from Scott, he works on VW buses too so he keeps stock on hand of many of these things. Or fleabay if you get lucky etc. Try to stay with ATE, Bendix, Pagid, Raybestos etc. on these old buses if you can find them.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[ToolBox]

Just quit f'n around with junk and have your old stuff relined, resleeved and remaned.

http://brakematerialsandparts.webs.com/brakerebuilding.htm

[germansupplyscott]

crappy parts are everywhere and this isn't about supplier "A" or "B" really, but the difference between some suppliers and others is that they actually look at the parts when they're put into inventory and also when they're packed and shipped. as vendors get larger it's harder and harder to maintain this kind of quality control, before you catch the issue many people may already be affected. brake shoes have gone way down in quality, like everything else, but there's no logical explanation why the carrier (the metal part) of a brake shoe would be wrong, these are industry standard specifications and should be very close to the same no matter who manufactures the shoes.

i think what's happening here is some manufacturer is taking a shortcut and using a carrier that isn't actually for an S421 shoe but is 'close enough'. shameful really that 'close enough' thinkers are deciding for us what quality of parts we receive. some of the brake shoes we have are made in china and they're actually quite good, but we do look at them and in many cases install them before we make them available for sale. we have some other shoes made in scandinavia that are not as good as the chinese ones.

a clear illustration of the decline of brake parts is here in an ad for some NOS genuine brake pads, there is a massive difference between readily available current supply pads and what used to be available from the VW dealer. you can easily see how much better the manufacture and finishing is on the genuine shoe versus a generic economy shoe. of course for genuine you always had to pay more, so this has driven quality parts out of the marketplace.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1594531
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SL

[MrBreeze]

"Close enough" works for a dashboard screw, not brake parts. Lordy. I notice it everywhere, nothing fits right or is up to standards in a lot of businesses now.
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-=Rob

WTB: Bay Shore or Queensboro VW Frames

HBB 1984-2009
RW 1943-2011
ER 1964-2023

[Waves2day]

Great thread. Thanks for the info.
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Sam
1976 Westfalia Camper Pop-top
1972 Westfalia Hardtop (sold)

[old DKP driver]

I have never argued with an employee of the DMV

Brake spring installation answer
If you theorize the return spring losing its effect when the primary lining wears then you will know why it is supposed to be installed the way it is in the repair manual.

It will NOT interfere or have a chance of falling out in front of the linings.

As for painting hubs, Drums or lugnut area it's been proven that this will not only produce a poor torque spec on the other fitting parts but is also dangerous.

Paint will move (chip) when applied unevenly and cause runout to change

The proper way to do this is to wire brush the hub and apply a thin coat
of multi-purpose grease on the contact surface. Before installing either the brake drum or brake rotor.
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V.W.owner since 1967

[VDubTech]

[Desertbusman]

Memory isn't the greatest but it seems as if the spring installed correctly pulls the shoes in the right direction and tension against the bumps on the backing plate. With the spring reversed it doesn't.
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71 Superbug
71 Westy

[kreemoweet]

Well now, this is truly disgusting ...

I just received another set of brake shoes for 73-79 bus, sent by Beck/Arnley Worldparts Inc, #0811489, ordered from rockauto.com, and they
are defective in exactly the same way as my TCM shoes. Even worse, because the linings are noticeably thinner. Made in China, of course.

There is no way these shoes I'm getting are correct, the big return spring is under so much tension it won't sit straight in the shoe holes (keeps trying
to "unwind"). Genuine VW return springs, too.

Again, it would be swell if someone could post a photo/template/whatever of a known-to-be-good late bus brake shoe, maybe we can get these
manufacturers/dealers straightened out.

I have another set of shoes on the way, different brand, also ordered from rockauto.com. We'll see pretty soon ...

If we can't get proper brake shoes, then we'll all have to park our busses permanently, ya know ...
_________________
'67 bug: seized by the authorities
'68 bug: seized by the authorities
'71 kombi: not yet seized by the authorities

Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!