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Fishynos72 Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2010 Posts: 514
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Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: Tribute engine- Aussie/tightass with a twist of okrasa |
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Rome wrote: |
The crank pulley on the Protyp's Type 64 engine has that "racy" look with the 4 drilled holes. Probably saving a few grams for lightness without compromising strength. That detail was maintained on Porsche 356 engines for years into production with the "OT" letter style pulley (OT = German for top dead center = Oberer Totpunkt).
I wonder how the Type 64's pulley is held onto the crankshaft? There certainly is no traditional large attachment bolt, and no securing pin. Looks like the end face of the crankshaft itself in the center of the pulley. Maybe the end of the crank was cut for a large external thread, and the pulley simply screwed on? That method would provide additional weight savings (no bolt and washer), and the 4 large holes could also be utilized for positioning a long breaker bar tool to loosen/tighten.
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I'm waiting on the new batch of OT pulleys from ISP. Figured that would give the closest look to the Type 64.
I noticed the 38/06 car as well as the 38/24 engine in Hamburg have the same crank/ pulley setup.
I like your external thread on the crankshaft idea _________________ Collector of all things Volkswagen, Hazet and Matra.
1972 1302
1973 type2a
1957 type11
2005 Caddy panel van
2006 Golf R32 |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2015 Posts: 715 Location: Rialto. CA
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Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 9:13 pm Post subject: Re: Tribute engine- Aussie/tightass with a twist of okrasa |
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Fishynos72 wrote: |
Rome wrote: |
The crank pulley on the Protyp's Type 64 engine has that "racy" look with the 4 drilled holes. Probably saving a few grams for lightness without compromising strength. That detail was maintained on Porsche 356 engines for years into production with the "OT" letter style pulley (OT = German for top dead center = Oberer Totpunkt).
I wonder how the Type 64's pulley is held onto the crankshaft? There certainly is no traditional large attachment bolt, and no securing pin. Looks like the end face of the crankshaft itself in the center of the pulley. Maybe the end of the crank was cut for a large external thread, and the pulley simply screwed on? That method would provide additional weight savings (no bolt and washer), and the 4 large holes could also be utilized for positioning a long breaker bar tool to loosen/tighten.
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I'm waiting on the new batch of OT pulleys from ISP. Figured that would give the closest look to the Type 64.
I noticed the 38/06 car as well as the 38/24 engine in Hamburg have the same crank/ pulley setup.
I like your external thread on the crankshaft idea |
Why isp there aluminum and wear out way faster than a steal or cast iron pulley 👇👇👇
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1400128 |
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Fishynos72 Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2010 Posts: 514
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Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 9:47 pm Post subject: Re: Tribute engine- Aussie/tightass with a twist of okrasa |
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A few reasons.
Firstly being completely honest, money. The ISP pulley was $100USD with only another $20 in shipping. I have no issues with the pulley you've posted, but can't afford to throw 350 euro plus shipping at a pulley. By the time I do the currency exchange it's an absurd amount. Also for 350 euro I can buy a genuine 356 pulley
Secondly, ISP have promised a revised design to fix the leak the previous ones had
Thirdly, I like the black anodised finish on the alloy. _________________ Collector of all things Volkswagen, Hazet and Matra.
1972 1302
1973 type2a
1957 type11
2005 Caddy panel van
2006 Golf R32 |
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Undis Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2006 Posts: 1396 Location: Riga, Latvia & Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:44 am Post subject: Re: Tribute engine- Aussie/tightass with a twist of okrasa |
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Excellent thread. I really like what you are doing especially with that fan-shroud and having that cast metal backing plate gives it a truly unique appearance.
One thing to keep in mind when talking about the early stuff such as the VW38 or the Type 64 is those cars were experimental and pre-production so it’s hard to determine what was “correct” for them. Porsche was constantly changing stuff on them utilising various suppliers and doing numerous experiments on the go. With the development of the flat4 he ordered parts from several companies but one thing to remember is that the suppliers themselves did not always develop entirely exclusive versions just for a small production run of cars. On occasions they would modify existing designs according to Porsche’s requirements. Similar or maybe even same parts could be found on other cars of the time.
As for the fuel pump it is likely that several versions were used in the early years. The body itself appears to be standard used at the time. This would mean that fuel pump tops could be interchanged with other makes. You may remember the car that was found on top of a workshop roof in Lithuania It had a glass integrated fuel filter top on it’s pump body.
You are correct in your comparisons between various engines and their accessories used over time on the Prototyp Museum Type 64. Initially it had a later KdF engine installed which has now given way to a correct VW38 version. Same was with VW38/06 which at first had a 1939 Kubel engine until the period correct VW38/16 engine was found and is now in the car. Same with Mathé’s Type 64. It used various later engines over the years but currently it has the correct 38/43 engine block in it. Same with smaller parts that may get changed along the way as soon as they are found.
It was only in the later years when production started at the Fallesleben factory parts were ordered in large numbers and were produced exclusively for the VW. The parts started to feature the VW logo (introduced in early 1939).
Just to get back to the Type 64, this was a racing project of national importance so it was under a veil of secrecy. Personally I’m not aware of any period engine photos so it’s a guess to some extent just what exactly was used on those 3 cars. This is a blessing in a way for what you’re doing because firstly it is a tribute to the early vintage speed. You can look closely at those engines and adapt parts that look the part. You can always change stuff later as you find a better version or make something yourself. There are no strict guidelines. _________________ Check out my Facebook page: Volkswagen Prototypes. |
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Undis Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2006 Posts: 1396 Location: Riga, Latvia & Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:52 am Post subject: Re: Tribute engine- Aussie/tightass with a twist of okrasa |
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Rome wrote: |
I wonder how the Type 64's pulley is held onto the crankshaft? There certainly is no traditional large attachment bolt, and no securing pin. Looks like the end face of the crankshaft itself in the center of the pulley. Maybe the end of the crank was cut for a large external thread, and the pulley simply screwed on? That method would provide additional weight savings (no bolt and washer), and the 4 large holes could also be utilized for positioning a long breaker bar tool to loosen/tighten.
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If you look closely there's a circlip involved. Admittedly I'm not entirely sure of how exactly it's fastened. _________________ Check out my Facebook page: Volkswagen Prototypes. |
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Undis Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2006 Posts: 1396 Location: Riga, Latvia & Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:59 am Post subject: Re: Tribute engine- Aussie/tightass with a twist of okrasa |
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Speaking of fuel pumps. Have a look at this period publicity photo of a VW38 engine. Another version of a fuel pump top seen here.
_________________ Check out my Facebook page: Volkswagen Prototypes. |
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Fishynos72 Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2010 Posts: 514
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:14 am Post subject: Re: Tribute engine- Aussie/tightass with a twist of okrasa |
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Undis wrote: |
Excellent thread. I really like what you are doing especially with that fan-shroud and having that cast metal backing plate gives it a truly unique appearance.
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Thank you, the backing plate has definitely generated the most questions thus far. It's definitely a distinctive look, especially against the normally black fan shrouds.
Undis wrote: |
One thing to remember is that the suppliers themselves did not always develop entirely exclusive versions just for a small production run of cars. On occasions they would modify existing designs according to Porsche’s requirements. Similar or maybe even same parts could be found on other cars of the time.
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I hope for this, as it will be my saving grace. If it's not a VW specific part, I hope that means I'll be able to source specific parts with some German eBay digging. What I lack is the knowledge of period the German vehicles the parts are also used on.
Undis wrote: |
Personally I’m not aware of any period engine photos so it’s a guess to some extent just what exactly was used on those 3 cars. This is a blessing in a way for what you’re doing because firstly it is a tribute to the early vintage speed. You can look closely at those engines and adapt parts that look the part. You can always change stuff later as you find a better version or make something yourself. There are no strict guidelines
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This is definitely true. For instance my slightly different choice in carburettors from the example Type 64s.
Hopefully I can blend a good combination of what is found of both "surviving" Type 64 engines to achieve an "appropriate look".
Undis wrote: |
Speaking of fuel pumps. Have a look at this period publicity photo of a VW38 engine. Another version of a fuel pump top seen here.
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I've never seen that particular photo, or that fuel pump top before. It's amazingly crisp for its time.
I'm always amazed by the prototype engines. They're both so close to mass produced engines even as late as a 36hp engine, and at the same time have an amazing amount of tiny differences.
I definitely need to look into making some of those bolt on 38 valve covers. I'm surprised no-one makes in anything other than alloy. _________________ Collector of all things Volkswagen, Hazet and Matra.
1972 1302
1973 type2a
1957 type11
2005 Caddy panel van
2006 Golf R32 |
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Rome Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004 Posts: 9603 Location: Pearl River, NY
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:59 am Post subject: Re: Tribute engine- Aussie/tightass with a twist of okrasa |
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If you look closely there's a circlip involved. |
Ah yes; in this photo I can see two lighter dots which would be for the tool holes for the circlip ends, and in another one I can see the thin ring of the circlip itself. Thanks.
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Fishynos72 Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2010 Posts: 514
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Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: Tribute engine- Aussie/tightass with a twist of okrasa |
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Rome wrote: |
Quote: |
If you look closely there's a circlip involved. |
Ah yes; in this photo I can see two lighter dots which would be for the tool holes for the circlip ends, and in another one I can see the thin ring of the circlip itself. Thanks.
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I'd probably suggest the crank and pulley are still keyed, and the clip would simply hold the pulley against a shoulder machined as part of the crank _________________ Collector of all things Volkswagen, Hazet and Matra.
1972 1302
1973 type2a
1957 type11
2005 Caddy panel van
2006 Golf R32 |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2015 Posts: 715 Location: Rialto. CA
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:54 pm Post subject: Re: Tribute engine- Aussie/tightass with a twist of okrasa |
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I know you guys are talking about the crank pulley nut/ mounting have you thought about using cb performance ss bolt it would give your engine almost the same look 👇👇
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2050.htm |
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Fishynos72 Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2010 Posts: 514
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:58 pm Post subject: Re: Tribute engine- Aussie/tightass with a twist of okrasa |
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That's a fantastic tip. I appreciate that. I have just bought a crank start crank nut but the CB definitely puts it more into the ballpark.
Cb make good stuff too. _________________ Collector of all things Volkswagen, Hazet and Matra.
1972 1302
1973 type2a
1957 type11
2005 Caddy panel van
2006 Golf R32
Last edited by Fishynos72 on Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2015 Posts: 715 Location: Rialto. CA
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Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:02 am Post subject: Re: Tribute engine- Aussie/tightass with a twist of okrasa |
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Well that's what we are here for to help eachother out and learn from each other 👍👍 the way it should be and remain to be 👍👍 |
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Fishynos72 Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2010 Posts: 514
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Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:47 am Post subject: Re: Tribute engine- Aussie/tightass with a twist of okrasa |
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[email protected] wrote: |
Well that's what we are here for to help eachother out and learn from each other 👍👍 the way it should be and remain to be 👍👍 |
Definitely. The samba is the best forum. Fair moderation and reasonable people help foster such a good environment for enthusiasts.
The samba isnt good for my wallet. _________________ Collector of all things Volkswagen, Hazet and Matra.
1972 1302
1973 type2a
1957 type11
2005 Caddy panel van
2006 Golf R32 |
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Fishynos72 Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2010 Posts: 514
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Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: Tribute engine- Aussie/tightass with a twist of okrasa |
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Tinware is all blasted, nearly all painted. Too cold to finish the black paint today.
I need to suss a method for the 'foe seem' on the fan-shroud before I can experiment with an alloy looking paint finish.
In other news, I now have 3 Solex 28FVIS on their way from various Samba/eBay sellers in different corners of the world.
Two are NOS.
The second NOS example
And a third for parts, that appears to have been on a statonary engine going off the cable controls. I may make something of that on another project.
All three seem to have different linkage setups. Hopefully theres enough between the three, and possibly something from some 28PCI that I can make them work.
I'm in quite a lot of money on these carburettors now. Especially shipping costs at the moment. I really hope they work well. It was almost cheaper to run cog logo era 26VFI as the two surviving Type 64s do.
I'm also keenly waiting for a package coming from Vladimír at lehar military vehicles.
Hopefully I have more updates soon. There will be a pause after these parts arrive so my wallet can recover. _________________ Collector of all things Volkswagen, Hazet and Matra.
1972 1302
1973 type2a
1957 type11
2005 Caddy panel van
2006 Golf R32 |
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Rome Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004 Posts: 9603 Location: Pearl River, NY
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Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:25 am Post subject: Re: Tribute engine- Aussie/tightass with a twist of okrasa |
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I need to suss a method for the 'foe seem' on the fan-shroud |
How "permanent" of a seam would you consider? Permanent, with metal deformation or welding? Or simpler, with a skim coat of body filler and a uniform groove scribed into the semi-hardened filler? Would you want just a simple lateral groove in the shroud to simulate the contact seam of 2 adjoining (abutting) pieces of metal? Or a more complex folded seam to indicate 2 interlocking pieces of metal? |
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Fishynos72 Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2010 Posts: 514
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Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:37 am Post subject: Re: Tribute engine- Aussie/tightass with a twist of okrasa |
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Rome wrote: |
Quote: |
I need to suss a method for the 'foe seem' on the fan-shroud |
How "permanent" of a seam would you consider? Permanent, with metal deformation or welding? Or simpler, with a skim coat of body filler and a uniform groove scribed into the semi-hardened filler? Would you want just a simple lateral groove in the shroud to simulate the contact seam of 2 adjoining (abutting) pieces of metal? Or a more complex folded seam to indicate 2 interlocking pieces of metal? |
The shroud modifications are definitely past the "permanent" point
I've been thinking about a 10mm wide strip of steel riveted to the shroud to simulate a seam. Thoughts? _________________ Collector of all things Volkswagen, Hazet and Matra.
1972 1302
1973 type2a
1957 type11
2005 Caddy panel van
2006 Golf R32 |
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Rome Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004 Posts: 9603 Location: Pearl River, NY
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Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Tribute engine- Aussie/tightass with a twist of okrasa |
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A steel strip with rivets would only look convincing in my opinion if the rear edge extends to, and is welded to the rear edge of the fan shroud width. The welds ground down smooth (and any voids filled with body filler) so that it would appear as though that strip is an integral part of the "rear half" of the shroud face. Then use the rivet spacing shown in the German guy's alu shroud build.
I think a simple "seam"/groove could be made by applying a long, continuous piece of painter's tape to exactly half the width of the shroud. Take a wide-blade chisel such as one for rock shaping, trace the curvature of the shroud onto the blade edge, grind the blade using a cutting disc angle grinder, and resharpen the newly cut edge. Then place the chisel onto the shroud right at the tape edge, and start tapping the chisel with a hammer to create the groove. Move the chisel carefully so that the blade always lines up with the tape edge and is not slightly askew/off parallel.
You can easily practice this method on a spare/later shroud, even a fresh air one if you start outboard of the center flat area. If you need that shroud later for another engine, you can fill the groove with body filler. |
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Fishynos72 Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2010 Posts: 514
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Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:12 am Post subject: Re: Tribute engine- Aussie/tightass with a twist of okrasa |
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I understand what you're saying. Have a look at the engine for 38/06.
Notice how the seal appears to be just a strip exposed on the surface?
That was the reason I was thinking along the lines of a strip riveted to the shroud. _________________ Collector of all things Volkswagen, Hazet and Matra.
1972 1302
1973 type2a
1957 type11
2005 Caddy panel van
2006 Golf R32 |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2015 Posts: 715 Location: Rialto. CA
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Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: Tribute engine- Aussie/tightass with a twist of okrasa |
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Fishynos72 wrote: |
I understand what you're saying. Have a look at the engine for 38/06.
Notice how the seal appears to be just a strip exposed on the surface?
That was the reason I was thinking along the lines of a strip riveted to the shroud. |
Let's talk about those bolt on valve covers 😍 that would be cool to make repop ones 🤔🤔 |
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Fishynos72 Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2010 Posts: 514
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Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Tribute engine- Aussie/tightass with a twist of okrasa |
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[email protected] wrote: |
Let's talk about those bolt on valve covers 😍 that would be cool to make repop ones 🤔🤔 |
Yeah I know. I've been looking at them for ages now
Seems no one even does a bolt on steel 36hp valve cover. They're all alloy _________________ Collector of all things Volkswagen, Hazet and Matra.
1972 1302
1973 type2a
1957 type11
2005 Caddy panel van
2006 Golf R32 |
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