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'58 PGSG project
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Peter_N
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:20 am    Post subject: '58 PGSG project Reply with quote

Hi all,

I bought a splitty 6 months ago so it's more than time to start a (my first!) topic on it. I bought it from a guy named Matt in the UK, and I think he imported it from California in 2011 or something. The birth certificate told me it was delivered in Chicago in February of 1958.
Matt had already did a fantastic job on replacing the cargo floor and small beams as well as the doglegs, rear corners and outer sills. Only things that have to be welded are the fronts windows and some other small sections.

First some pics:
On the day of picking it up in Dover (UK) I had a grin from ear to ear for the entire day Very Happy
The bus was stuffed with parts but I didn't want to tear the plastic to much as I still had to take the ferry back to European mainland (U can't stay with your car on the ferry).
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Back in the shop I thoroughly inspected the bus and the parts. I hadn't seen the bus in real life before I bought it, but was very pleased with it's overall condition and the original paint. Both pinstripes are still present Cool . Sadly some PO decided it was a good idea to sand down the nose and doors. The front and the welded sections will get a fresh layer of paint.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


A few weeks after I got the bus I bought a very complete 36 hp engine (the original was long gone) from the same production month and year as the bus, which is February 1958.
The engine actually came from a Swedish VW museum which had it in stock as a possible replacement engine. Because they wanted to downsize a bit they sold some cars and engines.
At the moment I'm mainly working on refurbishing the engine. Highly inspired by Last Triumph's 36 hp build, I'm trying to keep the engine as original as possible by only replacing the worn parts and keeping the paint on the cooling tin OG. (even the shoeboxes still wear their factory satin black coat Exclamation )
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I don't know what the exact future plans will be for this bus regarding ride height and/or fitting a bigger engine, but time will tell.

BTW: if someone recognizes this bus from the past I would love to know some more history Rolling Eyes

Regards,

Peter
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clnvwe2
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Applause Keep the pics rolling.. Congrats
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congratulations bro! Nice find... my favorite colour combination.

Have a look through the PGSG Bus thread if you havent already.

www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=306888

Cheers,

.Mike e Pri.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the pgsg club. Looking forward to following this thread.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

X2
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Peter_N
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the picture of the engine above I only had to remove the pulley to be able to clean the crankcase. I decided not to split the crankcase as the play on the crankshaft is just spot on and the internals don't show more than usual wear.
A home -made puller finally did the job, but by then I already flexed the pulley a bit with another puller that grabs the outside. Crying or Very sad Lesson learned!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Another thing I decided to do to ease the cleaning of the engine parts is the removal of the valves. As mentoined in the vw-manual you need tool VW 311.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

It turned out a closeby classic VW specialist had just the tool I needed...(for rent)
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The valves still look useable, but I still have to thoroughly clean and inspect them. I can easily replace the valves/guides as I've already sourced a complete set of NOS valves Very Happy

A thing that caught my attention during the disassembly of the engine is a blue streak of waxy crayon on one of the cylinders. I've read in the past about color markings on the cylinders and pistons but I always thought it wouldnít be very heat-resistant and just an aid for the factory assembly workers.
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I realize the picture isnít very clear but it is actually pretty bright. I'll try to make some additional pictures.
The schedule in the vw manual shows the blue marked cylinders should have 76,95 mm pistons fitted, so I immediately pulled the pistons from the storage shelf and you can guess the what the size imprint told me Exclamation
I am starting to love this little engine!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'll keep you updated!

Regards,

Peter
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Peter_N
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last tuesday I started the assembly of the 36 horse engine again.
I gave the cilinders a final inspection and cleaning bath and tried to make a better picture of the color mark (see post above).
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I've replaced the piston rings, but also measured the gaps on the old ones just for fun. Only the top rings were just a little past their wear limit Very Happy

I fitted the piston in the cylinders first before attaching them to the rods. Of course after I gently tapped the first piston pin in its position I discovered I forget to mount the paper gasket ring. Embarassed
To not forget them again, I pre-fitted them with a bit of heat resistant curil sealer.
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I am waiting for 4 new valve guides as I'm going to replace the exhaust guides/valves. Whether I place back the old exhaust valves or the new valves I bought, the radial play is beyond it's limit (haven't measured it but you can feel/see it).
For now I just covered the engine against dust and will continue later, hopefully this weekend.

In the meantime I removed part of the household paint on the inside. Luckily it was applied with poor prepation and comes off by scraping with a blunt flat screwdriver in most places.
Before:
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After:
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Most places that were painted will be covered up by upholstery. Also the window pillars in the cab were painted yellow so in those placed I try to be a bit more delicate to be able to keep the OG paint.
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Braukuche
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not supposed to use the paper gaskets on the cylinder base, just RTV. You for sure want to use the copper head seals though.
I love my 36hp engine in my '58 with its original crashbox. I did up the performance with a 69.5 vintage stroker crank and dual carb kit. You might want to consider that as an option if you are not happy with your performance. I can do 60mph all day long and even get it up to 68mph.
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Peter_N
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Braukuche wrote:
Not supposed to use the paper gaskets on the cylinder base, just RTV


Thanks for that information! I've seen some engine builds in the past where people did mount them, but I guess I'll just remove them now I still can. Does anyone know if RTV is comparable with Curil T (comparable to Curil K2, but higher heat resistance)?

Braukuche wrote:
I did up the performance with a 69.5 vintage stroker crank and dual carb kit. You might want to consider that as an option if you are not happy with your performance


That sounds like a fun engine! Is that a Okrasa crank or something?
I've actually never driven a split or had a 36 hp engine before in my life Laughing , so I am going in blind. I'd like to keep it a bit period correct so it might be a good option indeed.

Regards,

Peter

Btw, I just recieved the new guides, so I can continue this weekend Cool
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Braukuche wrote:
Not supposed to use the paper gaskets on the cylinder base, just RTV. You for sure want to use the copper head seals though.

curious why you say not to use the paper cylinder base gaskets?
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Braukuche
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StockNazi wrote:
Braukuche wrote:
Not supposed to use the paper gaskets on the cylinder base, just RTV. You for sure want to use the copper head seals though.

curious why you say not to use the paper cylinder base gaskets?


I read somewhere that VW recommended against it because they lead to oil leaks. I've never used them and just use RTV and never had any leaks, at least not there. If I am wrong please some one correct me. Hate to spread disinformation.
The crank was actually pre-Okrasa. It was EMPI stamped. Vitone (sp?) from EMPI had them milled at the same place as the Porsche cranks at the time. Found it in an old stash of 36hp parts stuffed under a old guys house ten minutes away from me along with the Rethwish manifolds. I used all the stuff from that haul to build the engine for my '58 which was sold 30 miles away from me. I like the idea that the bus and its engine have been in San Diego County since new.
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Peter_N
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itís been a while since the last update.. Embarassed
Process is rather slow at the moment since Iím trying to do everything myself and those little jobs can take ages as most of you will know.

Stocknazi and Braukuche, there seems to be quite a lot of discussion on this forum about using or trashing the paper gaskets. I will probably just leave them. I think using RTV or paper gaskets have their pros and cons. I got some time to think about it as Iím not even close to torqueing up the cylinders heads.

Iíve removed the old worn exhaust valve guides by tapping 8 mm thread on the spring side of the guide.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I then made a little pulling device from a socket and a piece of stud. I used double washers with a drop of oil between them to make sure the socket wouldn't start turning when tension is building up.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I placed the cylinder head in the oven and heated it up to 180'C (~350'F).
To cool down (shrink) the guide I sprayed some freezing liquid down the guide. (Always put on your safety goggles as the fluid starts boiling right away Laughing )
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Almost out!
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The socket wasn't tall enough to pull out the entire length of the guide. So I removed the puller, put the stud back in and hammered it out with a drift and nylon hammer from the other side.

To mount the new guides I took some scrap aluminum and made a guiding tool. I sanded down one of the old guides so I could push it back in half-way by hand. In this way the guiding tool puts the new guide in the correct angle. Also with the softer aluminum block I was able to use the hammer with full pursuasion.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

To facilitate the process I put the heads in the oven again and placed the guides on dry-ice.
I got two half-way in using a nylon hammer. I also tried to use a home build hydraulic press but this wasn't any succes. In the end I got them all in by re-heating the head, spraying the guides with freezing liquid and tapping them with a steel hammer.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The valves stems sit pretty tight so I got to get them reamed again. Does anyone know at what size they need to be reamed Question I've searched the internet for reamers and most of them have standard sizes like 7,0 mm. In the manual the guides have a factory fresh ID of 7,023 - 7,038 mm.
Btw, I will get the reaming done by a professional. As I mentoined before I like to do most things myself, but this is a bit over my head.

Another thing Iíve been doing is removing rust from the inside of the roof. I first used a wire wheel grinder attached to a powerdrill to remove most of the rust. I then applied Por15 metal prep to the middle section of the roof to check out its effect. I was a bit sceptical but now I've used it I must say, this stuff is great Exclamation It completely removes thin surface rust and converts heavier rust.
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After two days of drying (you have to wash it down with water and a sponge after ~30 minutes 'incubation') I aplied two coats of Por15 paint Cool Very Happy
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Thanks for watching!
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Peter_N
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeez, I suck at keeping my thread updated. I have made some progress though!
The little engine is close to finished. Only thing I need to do is fit a new belt and some fiddling such as valve adjusting and fit the spark plugs and exhaust clamps.
I am pretty stoked the way it turned out. I've managed to keep most of its OG paint on the tins and buffed the hell out of it Razz. The places where paint was damaged and will be exposed, I coated with a clear valvoline product.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The exhaust muffler is also original VW and in very good state.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Someone told me the oilbath filter is incorrect (from an industrial engine?) but that doesn't bother me...yet Laughing

Itís got me thinking on what to do next with the engine. The bus will not be finished for at least a year nor will the engine be fitted in the engine bay. Would it be best to leave it as it sits (with or without oil?) or already start it up and run it a couple of minutes.
Iíve replaced the pistonrings and honed the cilinders so it has to break in. During rebuild Iíve fitted the P/Cís with a thick mineral oil and coated the ends of the pushrods in ZDDP camshield.
So what do you guys think? Start it or leave it alone for a while

Another thing that kept me busy recently is constructing a rotisserie. I'm planning to sandblast to underside and coat it with some fresh paint. You can actually buy various systems here, which are fitted to the drums (big disadvantage of not being able to remove your gearbox and frontaxle) or are fitted to the bumperbrackets. I thought it would be much fun to construct my own! Mine will be mostly inspired on the one build by Josh (JOGR). I'll simplify it a little bit more by just mounting the front hoop below the frontaxle mounting holes. (Welding is already done and i'll remove the doors).
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

If the construction holds it I'll certainly post a pic, so if you don't see an update soon, I'll probably be crying and wheeping because it didn't Crying or Very sad

Cheers,

Peter
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
clear valvoline product

When I hear valvoline I think oil so you coated it in oil? Smile
Or some sort of paint sealer?

The air cleaner looks like a 1960 bus air cleaner but with an attachment for a breather hose.

I don't know on the engine, it seems like it would be ok to leave it for a while.
I've had an engine rebuilder tell me that if you have a used engine sitting for a long time you should overfill it with oil and rotate it every once in a while but I don't know if that applies to engines that are not broken in.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats amazing that those paint marks survived. I believe they're for ganging tolerances during production. The way that works is say you're machining a bore, as the tooling wears down the bore diameter will decrease with each subsequent unit since it's an internal cut.

If you're machining a piston, the OD will increase with each subsequent unit as the tooling wears down.

To maintain fit tolerances, you take the first bores which are the biggest and gang those with the last pistons which are the biggest, and so on until you get to the last bores and first pistons.

That's a very old school way of maintaining tolerances, today with CNC the tool wear is accounted for in the coding. Right out of college I worked in a machine shop that didn't have any CNC equipment, it looked mostly as it had in the 1930's and that's how we did it.
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Peter_N
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EverettB wrote:
Quote:
clear valvoline product

When I hear valvoline I think oil so you coated it in oil? Smile
Or some sort of paint sealer?

Valvoline Europe has actually a wide range of underbody coatings. The one I used is fully curing so not sticky. It turns out it's not very resistant to oil and brake cleaner, so I might redo the coating a some point with another product.

Quote:
The air cleaner looks like a 1960 bus air cleaner but with an attachment for a breather hose.

That's some great info. The breather hose tube has a plug in it so I guess I'll run it Cool

Quote:
I don't know on the engine, it seems like it would be ok to leave it for a while.
I've had an engine rebuilder tell me that if you have a used engine sitting for a long time you should overfill it with oil and rotate it every once in a while but I don't know if that applies to engines that are not broken in.

Yeah I think I am going to leave it as it sits. It's stored dry and heated, so moisture is kept out. I think rotating it every now and then spraying some oil in the cilinders won't hurt.

Pacmanfever wrote:
Thats amazing that those paint marks survived. I believe they're for ganging tolerances during production..

Interesting process, although very logical if you think about it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I break in my new motors for about 20 min- enough so they turn over by the generator nut- Then change out the contaminated oil and fire them up again and run some "storage seal" down the carb while running (300 rpm) till they smoke out the tail pipe.) When your in smoke flood them out with big load of storage seal. (Don't go crazy- just a table spoon ful and close throttle) Next drain the carb bowl and disconnect the fuel line at the carb and pump the fuel out of the pump and set it on a pallet to forget about- no turning or running - nothing- this product does a great job.

Then plug up the exhaust and intake/breathers and your done.

When your ready to re start, just ad gas and get ready for the smoke - run till it clears.

You can find storage seal at any marina - used exclusively to "winterize " boats.
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Peter_N
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

williamM wrote:
I break in my new motors for about 20 min- enough so they turn over by the generator nut- Then change out the contaminated oil and fire them up again and run some "storage seal" down the carb while running (300 rpm) till they smoke out the tail pipe.) When your in smoke flood them out with big load of storage seal. (Don't go crazy- just a table spoon ful and close throttle) Next drain the carb bowl and disconnect the fuel line at the carb and pump the fuel out of the pump and set it on a pallet to forget about- no turning or running - nothing- this product does a great job.

Then plug up the exhaust and intake/breathers and your done.

When your ready to re start, just ad gas and get ready for the smoke - run till it clears.

You can find storage seal at any marina - used exclusively to "winterize " boats.


I've never heard of that particular product, but I think that's just what I need! There is also something like 'fogging oil' (the same stuff?), but if I read it correctly, you just spray that in the cilinders for long term storage.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fogging oil--thats it-- But I run it thru the motor -that way it coats the intake and removes any water in the motor from carb to tail pipe- then seal it up with tape or plugs. - starts right up when needed.

Another product from the marine business is "ring free" -- great product for cutting carbon off ring lands and cylinder tops- was developed when the fuel changed faster than 2 stroke oil - so for a while the 2 stroke rings were getting stuck in the ring lands (groves) . Embarassed Embarassed

THEN Shocked there was the magic mixture used (invented??) by John Wayne Cutchen of ft myers Florida- consisting of white marine grease /motor honey/anti seize- in equal parts. if you NEVER wanted to have a prop stick on your outboard -OR a brake drum stick to a spline.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sooo, it's time for an update I guess.
I finished the rotisserie. I really enjoyed building it! It was pretty exciting when I tipped it over the first time, but all went well.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Link

Pretty cool to see the heater tube is still like new when the insulation was removed.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I'm planning to paint the chassis. Still doubting between primer grey with SG overspray or entirely sand green, but leaning towards the latter. First thing on the list was to sandblast the chassis, so I build a plastic tent with active ventilation and hired a diesel compressor.
Then came two tiring days of sandblasting Sad Our sandblaster doesn't have a pressurized vessel, but just sucks the sand by air passing along the sand tube, resulting in low sand (garnet) velocity.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Getting there...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I now have to do some small welding and some more rust removal

Happy new year!

Peter
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