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vw moses
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2012
Posts: 213
Location: independance,louisiana
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 Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:17 am Post subject: Dual valve springs on street mtr. |
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i 've got 044hds. w/duel valve springs and run on the street w/occasinal wind out to 5k between shifts i went whit duel springs to avoid valve float,but now concerened putt-putting along w/duels only rob power and unssary strain on valve train.  [/b] |
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15303
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:45 am Post subject: |
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On dual valve springs set the idle no lower then 900 RPM and you will be fine.
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2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
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Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76908
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
| On dual valve springs set the idle no lower then 900 RPM and you will be fine. |
Why is that?
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| mine idles smooth&low. I realy doubt you would see 1 mpg different with singles& everything else the same. but if you dont need them or want them change them out if it makes myou feal better, just be sure the spring will stay centered in the pocket.you will probably never notice the change. |
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| What cam and rockers do you have? |
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15303
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| vwracerdave wrote: |
| On dual valve springs set the idle no lower then 900 RPM and you will be fine. |
Why is that? |
To get enough oil flowing to cool them and for the rockers with the extra stress of heavier springs.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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Quokka42
Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2010
Posts: 3117
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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What cam are you running? Pushrods? engine?
You don't want the springs fighting with each other.  If you don't actually need the duals you can remove the inner spring and just run the outer, but it depends if it suits your engine so give us a few specs so we can give informed advice. Otherwise you will get plenty of advice, but mostly from people who live on the internet and don't actually have much real experience or knowledge of mechanics.
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vw moses
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2012
Posts: 213
Location: independance,louisiana
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:57 pm Post subject: duel valve springs on street mtr. |
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| i got cb cam 2241 w/424 lift 248 [email protected](oop's i just noticed on spec. sheet they call for valves 004 in& ex. 006,i'll haft to correct)87 p&c,heavy duty alm. push rods,duel 40hpmx's will be installing magna spark dist(cb) currently 009 dist w?com-fire elec ing. |
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Quokka42
Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2010
Posts: 3117
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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I'd say you are stuck with duals with that cam, unless you have the money and skills to use beehives. Don't worry so much about the power loss and heat for your application - killing your cam or valves is worse.
BTW, I'd have expected your engine to pull a bit more than 5k, even with out of the box 044s. 
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vw moses
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2012
Posts: 213
Location: independance,louisiana
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| also i got 1.1 rockers,straight cut cam gear-i don't go over 5g(got a tac.)because i never balanced the mtr.stock rods, i did install all new bearings i got concerened when in hot vw mag. a article mentioned no duel valves for street mtr.?i'm new to samba forums,thanks for the replies,actuall feel better now! |
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15303
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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I've been using dual valve springs on daily driven street engines for 20 something years.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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rockurob
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2009
Posts: 358
Location: Okla City, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:12 am Post subject: |
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It appears that the softest dual springs are Scat....(lowest poundage)
I measured (mic-ed) the coil diameter(not the overall diameter of the spring, but the thickness of the wire coil itself) on various HD and Dual springs....Engle, CB performance, Bug Pack and Scat( did not have an EMPI to measure)....
the Scat springs the smallest diameter of the coil, thus the softest poundage spring that I measured
and since your boss is cut for duals.....I know it has been done....
running a HD single on a cut for dual boss....I would be afraid to
try that combo.....
This is just some info for you to consider on dual springs
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juki48
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2007
Posts: 602
Location: Upstate NY
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| vwracerdave wrote: |
| On dual valve springs set the idle no lower then 900 RPM and you will be fine. |
Why is that? |
To get enough oil flowing to cool them and for the rockers with the extra stress of heavier springs. |
Sounds like you need a 30mm oil pump 
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74 Ghia 2276 Turbo MSII Extra
67 Beetle in restoration
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Brew City
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| rockurob wrote: |
It appears that the softest dual springs are Scat....(lowest poundage)
I measured (mic-ed) the coil diameter(not the overall diameter of the spring, but the thickness of the wire coil itself) on various HD and Dual springs....Engle, CB performance, Bug Pack and Scat( did not have an EMPI to measure)....
the Scat springs the smallest diameter of the coil, thus the softest poundage spring that I measured
and since your boss is cut for duals.....I know it has been done....
running a HD single on a cut for dual boss....I would be afraid to
try that combo.....
This is just some info for you to consider on dual springs |
That makes zero difference. Remember, the engine isn't smart. How does it know the boss has been cut? That boss has nothing to do with the valve springs.
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rockurob
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2009
Posts: 358
Location: Okla City, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| rockurob wrote: |
It appears that the softest dual springs are Scat....(lowest poundage)
I measured (mic-ed) the coil diameter(not the overall diameter of the spring, but the thickness of the wire coil itself) on various HD and Dual springs....Engle, CB performance, Bug Pack and Scat( did not have an EMPI to measure)....
the Scat springs the smallest diameter of the coil, thus the softest poundage spring that I measured
and since your boss is cut for duals.....I know it has been done....
running a HD single on a cut for dual boss....I would be afraid to
try that combo.....
This is just some info for you to consider on dual springs |
That makes zero difference. Remember, the engine isn't smart. How does it know the boss has been cut? That boss has nothing to do with the valve springs. |
Speculation if one was to float the valves(single spring with boss cut for duals)....the bottom of the spring may vibrate out of the valve pocket on the floor of the head ??? Like I said...speculation....you are the head expert.....I am just trying to rationalize and gain knowledge.
if that is the case, why did not VW manufacture the heads with a smaller ID boss (.650)...vs. stock (.830)... but utilizing same over all diameter stock valve spring (1.250) ??
they could of saved a little $$ on raw aluminum.... and with over a gillion heads that they manufactured.....wow! what a savings
guess I am just ol' school(my preference)
I like the base of my outer spring, and or inner spring with a little support
from the diameter of the boss at the floor of the head/spring pocket....that is why I stated "I would be afraid to run a single spring on a boss that had been cut" .650 for duals.....I actually cut my box to accept a .680 shim which I buy from Alex company which has mainly V-8 stuff.... which is a closer but an ample tolerance of the inner spring to the boss...
Bought some shims for dual springs....Scat, to utilize on some 041 heads that had been cut for dual springs in the early 90's(my son had them cut by a local VW machinist) and never used the heads.....the dual springs fit perfectly.....but the Scat shims....would not fit....measured them (.650) inner diameter....really did not want to cut the boss any thinner....so shopped around and found the .680x1.25 shims...which fit the inner spring/outer spring and the floor spring pocket perfectly
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bugguy1967
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 4341
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| rockurob wrote: |
It appears that the softest dual springs are Scat....(lowest poundage)
I measured (mic-ed) the coil diameter(not the overall diameter of the spring, but the thickness of the wire coil itself) on various HD and Dual springs....Engle, CB performance, Bug Pack and Scat( did not have an EMPI to measure)....
the Scat springs the smallest diameter of the coil, thus the softest poundage spring that I measured
and since your boss is cut for duals.....I know it has been done....
running a HD single on a cut for dual boss....I would be afraid to
try that combo.....
This is just some info for you to consider on dual springs |
Interesting. I need to remember that next time I need duals with a cam that is right on the cusp of needing duals. What were your measurements of different spring thicknesses?
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bugguy1967
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Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 4341
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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A CB 2241 is between a 100 and 110 cam. Remove your inners and you'll be ABSOLUTELY fine.
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rockurob
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2009
Posts: 358
Location: Okla City, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| bugguy1967 wrote: |
Interesting. I need to remember that next time I need duals with a cam that is right on the cusp of needing duals. What were your measurements of different spring thicknesses? |
The Scat springs, just purchased recently from Scat .166 coil
Bugpack 4060-10 (USA) .171 coil
This above is the outer spring measurement only
Next week, I will be reworking my friends CB 044's and will be removing
his CB springs and installing the Engle springs and while in hand will measure and record....and post for you.
for when I measured all of the springs, just took mental notes on his springs.....think one was .177 and the other .173 or .175??
The CB springs are an older set that came with his heads about 18 years ago.
the Engle springs are new
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70's....Owner "Der Bug Shoppe" Okla. City
70 Baja Street Rod Project
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1644125.jpg
Drag Buggy project:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1726674.jpg
61 Rag Project:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=1188580 |
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andy198712
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2010
Posts: 1209
Location: Cornwall - UK
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:02 am Post subject: |
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is metal thickness an indication of pressure though?
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| Alstrup wrote: |
| I like 5,5inchers in the rear at least. |
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rockurob
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2009
Posts: 358
Location: Okla City, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| andy198712 wrote: |
| is metal thickness an indication of pressure though? |
Andy, below is some of my research on valve springs. This is the advertised specs from catalogs and websites where sold....this is not my calculations
Empi as advertised
HD springs single 135 lb
Dual springs 180 LB ….Scat same for single…
but advertise 175 for dual
At 1.550 inch at rest….Scat same rest lb.
SCAT INFO
At rest Scat: single 135.….dual 175
Coil bind .900 single 230 lbs
.900 dual 340 lbs
2.4 length outer 2.025 inner diameter
SCAT INFO
At rest Scat: single 135.….dual 175
Coil bind .900 single 230 ibs
.900 dual 340 lbs
2.4 length outer 2.025 inner diameter
Bug Pack:
@ 1.562
Single 150#
4046 dual 195#
The above spring info is the low end of springs....or in the price range of $40-60 pending where you buy
The Bugpack springs I measured are USA made.....maybe older....not sure if same manufacturer as off the shelf today ?
The Scat springs fresh.....purchased from last month Scat..prob China made?
It appears the smaller the coil....the poundage decreases a little....
one can visually see the difference between the Scat and Bugpack springs in hand without the micrometer
I am sure there are lots of other variables....but this is just what I found....
but I would do your own research for your application
FYI: from the VW Service handbook "Without Guesswork"
34.3 or 1.350 on installation 102 lbs +-5 lbs loaded length
page 24 1970 edition
the above is a stock spring VW factory
I did this research trying to find the softest dual springs for a build.... that would still perform in the parameters that I trying to achieve.
_________________
70's....Owner "Der Bug Shoppe" Okla. City
70 Baja Street Rod Project
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1644125.jpg
Drag Buggy project:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1726674.jpg
61 Rag Project:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=1188580 |
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