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69 electrical hacks by PO, need advice
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Yarkle Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:17 am    Post subject: 69 electrical hacks by PO, need advice Reply with quote

Yarkle's drawing depicts what changes took place. When VW went from a 9 terminal, to a 4 terminal Emergency/ Flashing indicator Relay
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edited 4/12/15
Tcash




Original post begins here.
im pretty sure this isnt a vw bus piece?

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oddly, it seems the guy hooked the hoses up to two of the defroster ducts--so it would suck out of one, and blow out the other? apparently he threw out the Y when doing so too...

while he was doing that, he managed to snap off the fuse box, and add these weird fuses..some are very little..its like he cut down the arms to accomodate them

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best option? get a new one? this one?

http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=211937505B&AD=Wired_02_14
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes VW didn't put that blower there, is it attached over a hole in the fresh air box to draw air from there like some sort of hillbilly A/C?

As for the fuse box yes as well, the linked WW part is the correct one and your's looks like it's more trouble than it's worth.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks! thats what I thought. Dunno why they hooked it up that way. Its literally just replacing the Y piece, but with only two ends, not three. If it was working, it would only draw from one end of the dash and then blow on the other end. i havent removed it yet, but it doesnt seem to have any way to access the fresh air.

I figured as much with the fuse box..its mounting tabs are broken, and who knows how he managed to get the mounts that small.
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the weird electric plug like thing hanging down against the defroster tree? What is the loop of teal colored wires further to the left?

Its a shame that people can't figure out the easiest stuff. I think the government should buy up all the designs that Heathkit made over the years and require every student to build one of these electronic devices every few years. Depending on the difficulty of the kit and how well it worked in the long run they would get a grade point multiplier. Too easy or no workie and their 4.0 grade point average would become a C+.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there is all sorts of bizareness under there..funky offroad speakers too. The teal stuff is attached to an 80's alpine stereo and speakers. the plug is the antenna jack? The white wires with the red connectors are the hookups for the blower fan.Maybe he didnt have wire cutters?

Once I get a new fusebox, ive got to delete a bunch of halfassed splices and threeway connectors and trace several cut wires.

where is the dimmer relay supposed to be attached? im sure hanging down isnt factory.

Not visible, but suggested by the photo" the bottom of the M/C brake fluid pipe...apparently, he decided grommets were optional, so he used a piece of wire to tighten it up. Shocked
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yarkle wrote:
where is the dimmer relay supposed to be attached? im sure hanging down isnt factory.

Clips to the top of the steering column brace beside the flasher relay infront of the speedometer.
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Tom Powell
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 electrical hacks by PO, need advice Reply with quote

Yarkle wrote:
... while he was doing that, he managed to snap off the fuse box, and add these weird fuses..some are very little..its like he cut down the arms to accomodate them

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


best option? get a new one? this one?

http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=211937505B&AD=Wired_02_14


Those are SAE fuses that have been put in there and the PO ran the risk of them falling out and/or shorting between terminals. .22 cartridges have been used as fuses which resulted in testicular damage. The WBW fuse block looks very nice and will use the VW/OG fuses. Might just as well order a set of fuses and a set of spares at the same time. Consider using some dielectric grease on the new fuse box terminals to prevent corrosion and gremlins. The NO will appreciate that.

Aloha
tp


Last edited by Tom Powell on Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The two little fuses fell out as my son was taking the picture (he's the actual owner--so I need to make sure its done right). Ordered the fuses with the box.. Around here, at least, its really hard to get the ceramic fuses..All three parts stores only had them in a multi color pack, and both of the family VW's only use the white 8's.
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an og fuse box if your intersted.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, but ive already got one on the way1
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW, while you're replacing the fuse block check each of the slide-on female tab connectors to ensure they are tight. With age / vibration / thermal cycling the bronze gets brittle and loses its springiness, making for a bad connection. I've had them so brittle that when you try to squeeze the "shoulder" tighter with pliers the shoulder breaks off.
Use good quality lugs and a good crimper to squeeze them on properly.
Keeps your incidence of intermittent connections down in the future...
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Red Fau Veh
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dampcamper wrote:
FWIW, while you're replacing the fuse block check each of the slide-on female tab connectors to ensure they are tight. With age / vibration / thermal cycling the bronze gets brittle and loses its springiness, making for a bad connection. I've had them so brittle that when you try to squeeze the "shoulder" tighter with pliers the shoulder breaks off.
Use good quality lugs and a good crimper to squeeze them on properly.
Keeps your incidence of intermittent connections down in the future...
Agreed, the old connecters can't take any squeezing to make them tighter ime, but I have had luck using regular new connectors, maybe just remove the insulation before crimping them on. The og style is cool but they require that crimper and you need to crimp them once for the wire and once on the insulation, they are nice though.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks! Hopefully, the box will be here by this weekend and i can start fiddling with it. you can see in the pic theres already at least one splice at the box, ive got to check the diagram, but im pretty sure its not supposed to be there. there's also a couple more splices near the box..i think getting rid of that fan will help cut down on the confusion.

one other question vis a vis the diagram..Ive got a 10 fuse panel..but ive got the 4 pin flasher relay, not the 9 pin.

As far as I can tell anyways..it is screwed in atop the steering brace, and i could only feel 4 wires coming out, i could see the last part of the part number, which was : 3215C

WW west has this listed as the correct flasher for 68 starting with chassis218098286, mien is 229+++..is this a matter of the diagram being wrong?

or is their an interim wiring diagram we dont have?

or another PO hack?
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The hazard/signal circuit changed in early 69 (can't recall the VIN), count the wires on your hazard switch, if it's got 2 or 3 your bus uses the 9 terminal flasher, if the hazard switch has 9 terminals it uses the 4 or even 3 terminal flasher. You'll have to shift back and forth between the 1970 diagram and the 68/69 for that circuit. Could be a PO upgrade as well, the 9 terminal relay system is a pain.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My early 69 has the 4 pin relay, yours should be the same as mine. If you use a tablet to view the wire harness details, you can trace wires in the seat of the bus without much trouble. I would start AT the ignition switch and signal switch wires because many of the wires under your dash originate at that point. After getting those wires "wrung out" you can move on to simple switch wires and the last ones that attach to the gauge cluster. If you pull the gauge cluster prior to tracing the wires, you can disconnect the speedo cable and get the cluster out far enough to see and reach everything. Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got the fuse box in late this afternoon, and i got sidetracked by a decklid hinge replacement.

Im having trouble visualizing a few of the wires, maybe cuz its a 69 with the 4 pin relay?

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sorry for the crappy pictures.. i might be referring to bottom and top wrong, but thats how i visualize it..regardless, the #9 seems to be the reverse of the diagram--the rest line up

it seems, by the diagram, the #9 -going left to right- is upside down..all of the other paths look like the diagram (with the exception of all of the Po nonsense--but i didnt want to start yanking until i was sure))

it looks like its a hybrid of the 69 and 70 , as busdaddy said

a 69 should have one red 4mm wire coming from the top by itself, and 2.5 red, and a .5 red and a .5 red coming out the bottom.

a 70 should have a 6mm red coming out the top--by itself, with a 2.5 and two .5 reds coming out the bottom (using the #2 position)

mine seems to have a 6mm coming out of the BOTTOM, with two .5 (i think) red jumpered to it.

coming out of the top looks like a 4mm, with two .5s jumpred to it..one of these goes around the fuse box, and is connected to the same terminal as the 6mm via the post.

is this normal? if this is too confusing to follow, ill go out tommorow and draw the lines onto a blank fusebox sketch and try to diagram it that way.
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1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slightly confusing, but in the big picture the last thing you want to do is duplicate a PO's savagery. Pick the diagram that best suits the equipment in your bus and follow that, you may also want to look at http://vintagebus.com as some of the diagrams there have slightly better detail or may cover monthly changes better, just beware of the non USA ones as it'll mess with your head on the signal wiring.
When I do a job like you are I pull everything off and reattach one at a time according to the diagram, don't forget to keep track of whether you are viewing the front or back of the fuse box as some of the linked ones differ at each end.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can work with the early diagrams for bays because they show drawings of each switch and it all makes sense. The 73 and newer ones don't depict the actual switches, they are much more complicated to wring out ime. In fact I don't understand why they changed at all. Maybe Busdaddy can say why and explain how to use them to make all the connections in a late bay? Confused Here is an early bay diagram, you can see the lights, the horn, the switches and of course the wiring is shown from one end to the other.
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And here is a late bay diagram, no drawings showing the physical switches or lights, and nonsensical wiring connection order. But why?
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1973 Orange transporter stock type 4 with dual 40 Dellortos and Empi single quiet pack
1969 Adventurewagen blue whale Gene Berg 1776 built by Dave Kawell dual 36 DRLA's, Vintage Speed exhaust, Bosch 019 screamer
1961 Swivel Seat camper, L345 grey
Touch Nicks Thing wrote:
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Red Fau Veh wrote:
But why?


If you tried to show all the wires on a late model vehicle using the early style schematic you would need a drawing that would pretty much cover your living room wall, my relatively simple '72 Dodge takes 6 or8 hard to comprehend pages to show it complete wiring system using the same system that early VW's used, what a mess. The later style current track diagrams greatly simplify trouble shooting once you learn to use them. I almost never bother to look at the early congested diagrams when I am working on an '70 era VW, way easier in most cases to use the much simpler later diagrams. The why is that with the later style diagrams you can isolate the few wires you are actually concerned with and don't have to sort through the dozens of wires you have no interest in at the moment.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^Ditto^^^

Red Fau Veh wrote:
But why?


There is difference between a wiring diagram and an electrical schematic.
The first is just info about where to run wires and make connections. The second is more centered around describing functioning and is more suited to a technician when he troubleshoots. A lot of products supply both, but it just depends on the complexity of the system.

VW's just like all cars have gotten a bit more complex about every year (that's why I so much more appreciate early bays). Every year they have progressed more from owner maintenance to service facility maintenance and repair. Bays made that transition just like everyone else.

Can you imagine a wiring diagram (or printed circuit diagram) for any new car? And these days so many people can't even find their corroded battery cable connections.
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