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69 electrical hacks by PO, need advice
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garyb606
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:00 am    Post subject: 1969 Bay Brake Wiring Problem Reply with quote

I have read through all these threads many times and have tried lots of possible solutions only to blow another fuse.
I contacted the po this am (Ky) and he states that he did nothing with the brakes or mc relay switches. He said that the owner before him (Kansas) had taken the van on a hunting trip and died while hunting and the van sat for twenty or more years. I believe that statement due to the amount of nut droppings, rats and mud dobbers nests and red dirt that I have cleaned out of it. That prompts me to believe that the mc switches are original. Also, considering that they look old, crusty, and un-tampered with.
Thanks for all the help and brainstorming that you guys are doing to resolve this problem.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tcash--will do..hopefully ill have it figured out and a sketch done by sunday or monday--I dunno why they didnt just have a green wire coming off of the brake switch and going to term 54 instead of switching colors, or just used the black/red all of the way

Garyb606-Im not a wiring expert by any means, Ive just had alot of experience with the 69 models, id say you should:

1. get three prong switches, and hook up the wires per the diagram tcash provided on page 4..If it were original, you either have three 2 prong switches or two three prong switches...since youve got two dangly wires, im prertty confiudent you need the three prong
2. youll probably have to bleed the brakes
3. take out those old fuses, especially the pink and red ones
4. clean the contacts on the fuse box, and make sure the wires are on there tight
5. put in new white 8 amp fuses (only..no reds!!!)
6. check and make sure there arent any more dangly wires or loose connections (id wait on the red/black until i can check it for you)-sometimes when people get fiddlign in there, they come loose

by the time you get that done, I should be able to confirm if that black with red spots thats dangling shoudl go to the connector with the green wire

that might solve your problems, or at least help them..if that doesnt work, the you probably have a bad 4 pin relay and/or a bad hazard switch.

When we got my sons bus, none of the lights worked..when i pulled all of the old fuses and just put in new fuses, that solved half of the problems right away.
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] "the Thing" thread:
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1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:19 am    Post subject: 1969 Bay Brake Wiring Problem Reply with quote

1969 Bay Brake Wiring Problem

Knowns
1969 Chassis number is: 239018233
10 fuse, fuse block
4 terminal turn signal flasher relay. Guessing 211 953 215 C Turn Signal Relay
2-2 terminal brake light switches
The two loose wires at the brake switches were the ones that were supposed to go to the third brake warning light switch.
The turn signals do not work however, the front right side did work until today. Don't know why it quit bulb is good and fuses good.
All of the bulbs are good.
When the emergency flasher is pulled out the front parking/turn signal indicators work but nothing in the rear.




Questions
1. First, did the brake lights and turn signals ever work?
2. Black and red stripe wire. Where does it go?
3. Black with red dots. Where does it go?
4. Green with a plastic connector. Where does it go?
5. Did you: Look at the stuff coyotewarrior posted on page 4--and the youtube video he posted?
6. What color is the wire on terminal 54 on the Emergency (hazard) switch?
7. I have read through all these threads many times and have tried lots of possible solutions only to blow another fuse. Which fuses are blowing?
8. All of the bulbs are good. How do you know this, did you test them?


Last edited by Tcash on Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:03 am; edited 2 times in total
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yarkle wrote:
Tcash, no official diagram exist-.
They had to have one to build these things. It might have been
hand drawn on a napkin and put out on the assembly line? Who knows? Sometimes the aftermarket manuals will have different diagrams in them. To address issues like this. Or the vehicle they had was wired like this?


I dont know WHY they had to reuse the black/red wire in the different 69s.
Or at least kept the BK/R as the power to the brake light switches. Instead of putting it on the other side of the brake light switch and sending it to the E-Switch.

Why do wires change color sometimes when they hit a connector.
I gave this some more thought. This may have been out of necessity. They may have ran out of the 9 pin relays and had to use the existing wiring looms to wire in the 4 pin relays?


So far, for 68-70 we have:
10 fuse, 9 pin external turn signal relay, 4 pin external Dimmer relay, 2 pin E-switch.
10 fuse, 4 pin external turn signal relay, 4 pin external Dimmer relay, 9 pin E-switch.
12 fuse, 4 pin internal turn signal relay, 5 pin internal Dimmer relay. (note: 5th pin is a locating lug and is not connected to anything), 9 pin E-switch.

Question, is there a?
12 fuse, 4 pin external turn signal relay, 4 pin external Dimmer relay.

Thanks
Tcash
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Yarkle Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeas, they must have gone off of something, but Ive been unable to locate it..An old post on shoptalkforums had stated that Bentley never printed the changes, possibly becuase it changed several times in a few months?

I checked the samba, vintagebus (even looked at all of the euro models), earlybay forums, shoptalkforums, type2.com, old volks home, and spoke with speedy Jim and Peter Good (who does the UK wiring harnesses), and checked the bentley (both the green book and the telephone book), gute fahrt, chilton, clymer, haynes and found no official diagrams that match this version of a 69.

AND, as far as I can tell, theres these versions: A. red/blk to the brakes and B. black to the brakes--possibly a third (C), where it splits off the horn and powers the brake switches, version of the 69 not shown on the bentley.

If someone could find one, they are far more skilled and persistent than I.

Tcash, do you think this bus in question had a third 2 prong brake switch that was deleted? I think its more likely in the past, someone went and got new switches and the FLAPS gave a PO a 2 prong instead of a 3 prong.

OR is this the issue?: (your pic BTW!) Wink

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


IF thats the case, which I dont think it is, because It seems the 2 switch setup occured at the same time as the switch from the 9 pin to 4 pin relay...or could it be possible there are some that used the two prong swithces but the new relay? Or am i overthinkign this?

Garyb606..which Master cylinder do you have? the upper one or the lower one?
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] "the Thing" thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP


Last edited by Yarkle on Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tom Powell
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:09 pm    Post subject: Engine only runs with parking lights on Reply with quote

I have a '69 camper I bought in the eighties. I put on front disc brakes with a different MC and I've done some electrical hacks also. The emergency flasher came apart and got zip tied. The turn signal switch got replaced. The light switch rheostat disintegrated and the engine would start and run only with the light switch in the parking light position. I replaced it. Taillights had been intermittent, but were fixed by cleaning the grounds. Everything has worked well for the last twenty years, but these posts are scaring me.

Aloha
tp
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom,

I think the problem with "these" 69s (which yours might not be) is when soemthing went bad with the electrical system, people looked at one diagram or the other (and neither was really correct) , and just tried to start moving wires around..Mine was absolutely horrid when i started. I can imagine the one coyotewarrior has happened like this:

PO: "Hmm...brake lights not working...well, the diagram says this red/blk wire thats connected to this green wire should actually go to the fusebox, so let me poull it apart and try that."
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] "the Thing" thread:
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1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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garyb606
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:54 pm    Post subject: 1969 Bay Brake Wiring Problem Reply with quote

I will go the parts house and get 8 amp fuses tomorrow and replace all and check wiring terminals for tightness. All of the lights work on park and with low and high beam headlights. I have moved light bulbs around in an effort to determine if a bulb is faulty or not but...no difference.
The front right turn signal worked when I first got the van but doesn't work now.
Black wire with red stripe goes to right rear brake light and black wire with yellow stripe goes to left rear brake light. Green wire goes to center post (I believe is #54) on flasher unit. Black wire with red dots goes to a post on the master cylinder front switch.
The master cylinder that I have resembles the top one in the picture.
The fuses that have blown in past are #1 a few times and #10 once. Number one being the one nearest the driver door.

The VW club here where I live meets Sat. I am planning on going. Have never been and am a new VW owner. Another member said that a club member knows wiring and would be glad to look at this problem. I do not plan on doing much changing until I get his opinion.

As far as dangly wires...there was one coming off the black wire with yellow stripe on the left rear brake light, it went nowhere. I took it off. I am guessing a po may have pulled a trailer and attempted to hook up lights. Don't know. No evidence of a hitch being on the bumper though. Bumpers look to have been painted white in recent years.
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yarkle wrote:
Yeas, they must have gone off of something, but Ive been unable to locate it..An old post on shoptalkforums had stated that Bentley never printed the changes, possibly becuase it changed several times in a few months?

I checked the samba, vintagebus (even looked at all of the euro models), earlybay forums, shoptalkforums, type2.com, old volks home, and spoke with speedy Jim and Peter Good (who does the UK wiring harnesses), and checked the bentley (both the green book and the telephone book), gute fahrt, chilton, clymer, haynes and found no official diagrams that match this version of a 69.
It sounds like you covered most all of them. I got one that is not listed. I will dig it out and take a look.

AND, as far as I can tell, theres these versions:
A. red/blk to the brakes. Is this from fuse #1?
B. black to the brakes. Is this from fuse #1 as well?
(C), where it splits off the horn and powers the brake switches, version of the 69 not shown on the Bentley. Is it Black to the brake switches and Blk/Y to the horn? Like the 70 diagram?

If someone could find one, they are far more skilled and persistent than I.
This may jog someones memory. It may have been a amendment (service bulletin) to the service manual?

Tcash, do you think this bus in question had a third 2 prong brake switch that was deleted? I think its more likely in the past, someone went and got new switches and the FLAPS gave a PO a 2 prong instead of a 3 prong.
It was #18,233 built in 69. So it would be safe to say it had the 68-69 211 611 021Q 3-2 terminal switches. The parts manual list that master until the end of 69 and it has been reported that some came on early 70s Buses.
It seems it was common for POs to remove the 2 terminal switches and transfer them to the replacement master cylinder. As in the picture below.


OR is this the issue?: (your pic BTW!) Wink Thanks goes to Red Fau Veh he was kind enough to post that pic.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


IF thats the case, which I dont think it is, because It seems the 2 switch setup occured at the same time as the switch from the 9 pin to 4 pin relay...or could it be possible there are some that used the two prong swithces but the new relay? Or am i overthinkign this?
When the Master cylinders changed is when the switches changed. There is a conflict with the switches in the parts manual. It states that the 2-3 pin switches started from 229 061 578 on certain M-options.


Garyb606..which Master cylinder do you have? the upper one or the lower one? Garyb606 said he has the two hole master cylinder.
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 Bay Brake Wiring Problem Reply with quote

Tcash wrote:
1969 Bay Brake Wiring Problem

Knowns
All of the lights work on park and with low and high beam headlights.
1969 Chassis number is: 239018233
10 fuse, fuse block
4 terminal turn signal flasher relay. Guessing 211 953 215 C Turn Signal Relay
2-2 terminal brake light switches
The two loose wires at the brake switches were the ones that were supposed to go to the third brake warning light switch.
The turn signals do not work however, the front right side did work when I first got the van until today. Don't know why it quit bulb is good and fuses good.
All of the bulbs are good.
When the emergency flasher is pulled out the front parking/turn signal indicators work but nothing in the rear.




Questions

2. Black and red stripe wire. Where does it go? Black wire with red stripe goes to right rear brake light
3. Black with red dots. Where does it go? Black wire with red dots goes to a post on the master cylinder front switch.


7. I have read through all these threads many times and have tried lots of possible solutions only to blow another fuse. Which fuses are blowing? fuses that have blown are #1 a few times and #10 once.
8. All of the bulbs are good. How do you know this, did you test them? moved light bulbs around

black wire with yellow stripe goes to left rear brake light. It had a dangling wire, that looked like it was added by a PO. I took it off


Not bad.
1. First, did the brake lights and turn signals ever work?



4. Green with a plastic connector. Where does it go? Green wire goes to center post (I believe is #54) on flasher unit.

Here is a pic of the Flasher unit (relay). Is the green wire on the terminal by itself on top (#KBL)? Or is it on the center of the bottom three (#49)?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


5. Did you: Look at the stuff coyotewarrior posted on page 4--and the youtube video he posted?

6. What color is the wire on terminal 54 on the Emergency (hazard) switch?

9. Got another one for Ya. Does the Emergency hazard switch look like it has come apart? Thanks Tom for the reminder.

I'm tired I think I'll go home.
Tcash
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TCash- on the fuse #1..yes on all three counts, as far as I can tell. C im not 100% sure about, but it looks like that what Coyotewarrior had in his youtube video. Ill know more this weekend. I think Coyote warrior erred when he put the yellow/blk wire with the red pigyback on fuse 10, BTW.

I looked at the technical bulletins on the samba, but I didnt find any relevant wiring

I dont know if MY bus had the original M/C in it, but it was really pitted and gnarly when i removed it, so i was guessing that it was...It had the three prong setup though..but it was a deluxe, dunno if that makes a difference? but, it could have been swapped over at soem time.

Garyb606- If that green wire goes to term 54 on the hazard switch connect that black wire with the red dots to it, that might fix alot of problems

If your master cylinder is two hole, you need to have the three prong switches on it to make your warning lamp work. I dont know if you leave it unhooked if it will affect other operations--regardless, if you do decide to keep just the two 2 prong switches, make sure they were wired correctly using that schematic on page 4.

that black red wire should go to your turn signal switch, or a connector that goes to it.

AND if the problem is your brake lights never worked--have you checked the bulbs, connections, and the grounds for the brake lights?
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] "the Thing" thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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garyb606
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:36 pm    Post subject: 1969 Bay Brake Wiring Problem Reply with quote

Brake lights have never worked. Front right turn signal worked but has now stopped working.
The green wire goes to the center post on the emergency flasher #54 I believe, not the flasher unit relay. Emergency flasher unit appears intact and feels solid.
I plugged the black wire with the red dots into the green wire connector and they fit like they were supposed to be together but nothing with key on and brake pedal pressed. I have checked bulbs, grounds, connections and fittings and wiggled wires.
I have watched coyotewarrior's video on page 4 several times. That's how I learned that Tcash was instrumental in getting Abel's brake wiring problem resolved. I believe his electrical system is different that mine. Good video.
Sorry guys for all the trouble and thanks for being patient and tremendously helpful trying to get this fixed.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:51 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 Bay Brake Wiring Problem Reply with quote

garyb606 wrote:
......The green wire goes to the center post on the emergency flasher #54 I believe......

Have you cleaned the plastic part off and looked at the numbers beside the terminals with a light (and magnifying glass if you are getting old)?, no guessing here, the wires have to be on the correct terminals and they move around year to year, "the middle one" isn't good enough.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:48 pm    Post subject: 68-69 Fuse Box Index, Diagram, Schematic Reply with quote

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Last edited by Tcash on Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:04 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:08 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 Bay Brake Wiring Problem Reply with quote

Tcash wrote:
Tcash wrote:
1969 Bay Brake Wiring Problem

Knowns
All of the lights work on park and with low and high beam headlights.
1969 Chassis number is: 239018233.
10 fuse, fuse block.
4 terminal turn signal flasher relay. Guessing 211 953 215 C Turn Signal Relay.
2-2 terminal brake light switches.
The two loose wires at the brake switches were the ones that were supposed to go to the third brake warning light switch.
The turn signals do not work however, the front right side did work when I first got the van until today. Don't know why it quit bulb is good and fuses good.
All of the bulbs are good.
When the emergency flasher is pulled out the front parking/turn signal indicators work but nothing in the rear.
Black wire with red stripe goes to right rear brake light
Black wire with red dots goes to a post on the master cylinder front switch.
fuses that have blown are #1 a few times and #10 once.
All of the bulbs are good. moved light bulbs around to test
black wire with yellow stripe goes to left rear brake light. It had a dangling wire, that looked like it was added by a PO. I took it off


Not bad. Round two
1. First, did the brake lights and turn signals ever work?
Brake lights have never worked.

4. Green with a plastic connector. Where does it go?
Green wire goes to center post (I believe is #54) on flasher unit.
Do you mean #54 on the Hazard (emergency) Switch like this in the picture?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

9. Got another one for Ya. Does the Emergency hazard switch look like it has come apart? Thanks Tom for the reminder.
Emergency flasher (switch) unit appears intact and feels solid.

5. Did you: Look at the stuff coyotewarrior posted on page 4--and the youtube video he posted?
I believe his electrical system is different than mine.

6. What color is the wire on terminal 54 on the Emergency (hazard) switch?

Tcash
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks TCash for posting the manual. I have looked at it a lot. I do not have one but plan on getting one. Yes, that's my electrical emergency switch. I have not checked and cleaned the terminals on the emergency switch.

Consider this, when I first started trying to solve this electrical brake problem, I noticed that the two wires going to the horn had been cut. They were cut far enough away from the horn that I made extensions and connected the horn,. Horn worked, then it got squirrely and worked intermittently, then quit. It blowed fuse one. I replaced that fuse and took the horn out. I put the horn on a 12 volt power supply and it would spark (short out) each time power was applied. I figured that the (Bosch) horn was old and just died of old age. It is now out of the circuit. I pulled it apart to see if I could determine what happened. No evidence of shorting out. Windings may be bad. I am not an electrical guru by no means.

From the video on Pg. 4 I know that the horn derives it's power from the black with yellow stripe wire. That wire T"s off and goes on to the master cyclinder switch(s). I see the plastic connector but there is no T wire going to MC switches currently. Is this a likely problem?
Thanks
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gary,,,I would (not) take rust as indicative of an original MC, they can rust in a year or two. That might be a mc from any car that happened to fit. Does it have a VW part number on it? Apologies if I missed that up thread
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garyb606 wrote:

From the video on Pg. 4 I know that the horn derives it's power from the black with yellow stripe wire. That wire T"s off and goes on to the master cyclinder switch(s). I see the plastic connector but there is no T wire going to MC switches currently. Is this a likely problem?


YES!!! that is possibly most of the problem. Without that wire providing power to the switches, you arent going to get brake lights. That wire provides power, which in turn provides power to the black and red spot wire that goes to terminal 54 (probably via the green wire)..

DISCLAIMER: that only applies if there isnt another wire powering the switches...there should be a power wire, a wire that goes to terminal 54, and a wire that goes to the warnign lamp--re watch that video from 1:34 to about 2:50 if im confusing you here.

AND: ITs possible that the wire is physically hooked up to the switches, but ISNT actually going anywhere...you may have to peel back the plastic sleeve and see if its cut off..its should be hooked to the black/yellow somewhere. Maybe is was disconnected/cut in the past?

I think you probably have the same setup coyotewarrior had, its just he got confused between the 12 fuse and ten fuse panels.. I think You should have at fuse 1:

black/yellow--which powers the horn and then splits off to the M/C--like a 70 would
that black yellow should be piggybacked with a red wire, which goes to the warning light
black which goes to the flashers -I THINK this then goes to your flasher relay


TCash, The owners manuals you posted make me think thats why there are two different wire color scenarios, they slightly changed the fuse layout, possibly to reflect they relay/brake switch and hazard changes
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] "the Thing" thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:30 am    Post subject: 1969 Bay Brake Wiring Problem Reply with quote

I cleaned all fuse box connectors and replaced all fuses with 8 amp. white ones.


Thanks Abscate. Point well taken. I see a large number 22 on top of the MC and a small 79. One word appears to be four letters can't make it out. I hope 79 don't mean it is that year of mfgr. The MC has the brake fluid reservoir sitting on top supplying both sensors and two brake lines fitted to the top of the MC.

Yarkle, On the fuse panel #1 (on top) there is a black wire with yellow stripe piggybacked to a red wire; on the bottom of that fuse is a single black wire.

On the plastic connector under the van; a black wire with yellow stripe and a black wire going in and a larger single black wire leaving. I have it going to horn. No evidence of another wire piggybacking over to MC, but, that is my guess that there was once one.

Do I need to make a jumper from the plastic connector (one wire is going to the absent horn) that is supposed to branch off and tie the black wire with yellow stripe to the two wires that are coming from each of the MC switches?
Thanks
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Tcash
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Joined: July 20, 2011
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Location: San Jose, California, USA
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 Bay Brake Wiring Problem Reply with quote

[quote="Tcash"]
Tcash wrote:
1969 Bay Brake Wiring Problem

Knowns
Brake lights have never worked.
All of the lights work on park and with low and high beam headlights.
1969 Chassis number is: 239018233.
10 fuse, fuse block.
4 terminal turn signal flasher relay. Guessing 211 953 215 C Turn Signal Relay.
2-2 terminal brake light switches.
The two loose wires at the brake switches were the ones that were supposed to go to the third brake warning light switch.
All of the bulbs are good.
All of the bulbs are good. moved light bulbs around to test
Emergency flasher (switch) unit appears intact and feels solid.
5. Did you: Look at the stuff coyotewarrior posted on page 4--and the youtube video he posted?
I believe his electrical system is different than mine.

fuses that have blown are #1 a few times and #10 once.
When the emergency flasher is pulled out the front parking/turn signal indicators work but nothing in the rear.
The turn signals do not work however, the front right side did work when I first got the van until today.

(Blk/red stripe) goes to (right rear brake light)
(Blk/red dots) goes to a post on the master cylinder front (brake light switch).
(Blk/yellow stripe) goes to (left rear brake light). It had a dangling wire, that looked like it was added by a PO. I took it off







Not bad. Round three

4. Green with a plastic connector. Where does it go?
Does the Green wire go to #54 on the Emergency (hazard)Switch?


1.I know that the horn derives it's power from the black with yellow stripe wire. That wire T"s off and goes on to the master cyclinder switch(s). I see the plastic connector but there is no T wire going to MC switches currently. Is this a likely problem?
Don't know yet. We are going to need you to accurately tell us, where the wires are hooked up. So we can get a clear picture of what you have.


Tcash
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