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69 electrical hacks by PO, need advice
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yarkle wrote:
TCash, The owners manuals you posted make me think, that's why there are two different wire color scenarios, they slightly changed the fuse layout, possibly to reflect the relay/brake switch and hazard changes.
Quite possibly
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garyb606
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 am    Post subject: 1969 Bay Brake Wiring Problem Reply with quote

The dangling green wire under the dash with the plastic connector goes to middle pin on the emergency flasher. Based on what I've read and seen in the coyotewarrior video it is #54.

Gary B
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Garyb606--you have to be SURE that prong is 54, not just the middle one.

I'm not trying to be a fanboy here, but both Busdaddy and Tcash both really know their stuff...they are asking these questions to help you, so if you dont answer exactly what they asked, it makes it harder for them (and tangentially me) to fix your problem.

Busdaddy (and Tcash) asked: what color is the wire on 54? and added
"no guessing here, the wires have to be on the correct terminals and they move around year to year, "the middle one" isn't good enough."

So please verify that "middle" one is 54.

When I first started this thread, I was getting ready to torch the bus, until busdaddy walked me through it.


now:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


on this pic, I cant tell if that black wire is one wire coming off of the switch, or if there is one wire coming off of the switch, and another coming out of the loom?

There should be three wires going through that loom (again coyotewarriors vid)

1. a black wire that powers the brake switches (this should T off of the blk/yellow)

2. the black with red spots i can see, that goes to term 54 on hazard (posiibly through the green connector)

3. another black wire that goes to the brake warning light

from your pic, I cant tell if there is one, two, or three wires comign out of it

If there are not 3, you might want to split that sleeve open and see if there are broken/cut wires in there.

Lastly: from what you reported as far as wire colors go, I think you have exactly the same setup as coyote warriors, again, i think he got confused about the #10 switch from the 12 fuse panel. His red and blk/yellow should be on fuse 1, not 10..I think his red/blk was too short because he was missing a connector, or couldnt find it. Id suggest you watch the video again, with that in mind, and i think youll see what you are missing.

TCASH: those owners manuals gave me an idea on this isssue, but Ill need to physically check my bus and my buddys bus to be sure, hope to know by sat. this doesnt affect garybs problems, but hopefully it wont be as confusing for other 69 owners in the future.
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
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1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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garyb606
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:40 pm    Post subject: 1969 Bay Brake Wiring Problem Reply with quote

I have tried sever times to wrangle that emergency flasher out in order to pull the wire off that is considered #54 but I am not savvy enough to take enough wires off to be able to access it. I would not get them back in their proper places and then I would be in even worse shape with this concern. There is very little travel on that switch because of the lengths and numbers of wires connected.

I will try to send three pictures that I took under the bus of the black/yellow wire/plastic connector and the MC switches. These pictures may be some better.

The top pic shows the black/yellow wire and a black wire going into the plastic connector and the next pic shows where a single black wire emerges on the other side of the frame. I put a piece of paper on that wire so I would know that was the wire that would require a jumper going to the MC switches. Both of these wires were cut off about ten inches too short to be able to connect to the horn, that is why the extensions. The other wire appears to have a red stripe. It does NOT. It is a reflection from the wire nut.
The MC switch pic shows black/red wire and a (2) black wires emerging from a sleeve. The black/red wire goes to the MC switch connector and one black wire goes to the MC connector and piggybacks to opposite MC switch with blue connector. The other black wire goes to the left and dangles. I added the blue connector because the old one crumbled. The leads going to the left are the black wires with fittings that are dangling.

I have watched the coyote warrior video again several times today. It is good.

I am sorry that I am no good at electrical.
Perhaps I can get a club member this weekend to help me isolate the #54 pin exactly.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I'm into big rewires like this I remove the speedo cluster, so much nicer to sit in the drivers seat and look down on all the wiring, opposed to the under dash limbo in the dark.
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:14 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 Bay Brake Wiring Problem Reply with quote

Tcash wrote:
1969 Bay Brake Wiring Problem

Knowns
Brake lights have never worked.
All of the lights work on park and with low and high beam headlights.
1969 Chassis number is: 239018233.
10 fuse, fuse block.
4 terminal turn signal flasher relay. Guessing 211 953 215 C Turn Signal Relay.
2-2 terminal brake light switches.
The two loose wires at the brake switches were the ones that were supposed to go to the third brake warning light switch.
All of the bulbs are good.
All of the bulbs are good. moved light bulbs around to test
Emergency flasher (switch) unit appears intact and feels solid.
5. Did you: Look at the stuff coyotewarrior posted on page 4--and the youtube video he posted?
I believe his electrical system is different than mine.

fuses that have blown are #1 a few times and #10 once.
When the emergency flasher is pulled out the front parking/turn signal indicators work but nothing in the rear.
The turn signals do not work however, the front right side did work when I first got the van until today.

(Blk/red stripe) goes to (Right rear brake light)
(Blk/yellow stripe) goes to (Left rear brake light).
(Blk/red dots) goes to a post on the master cylinder front (brake light switch).



Questions

4. Green with a plastic connector goes Where does it go?
Does the Green wire go to #54 on the Emergency (hazard)Switch?
1.I know that the horn derives it's power from the black with yellow stripe wire. That wire T"s off and goes on to the master cylinder switch(s). I see the plastic connector but there is no T wire going to MC switches currently. Is this a likely problem?
Don't know yet. We are going to need you to accurately tell us, where the wires are hooked up. So we can get a clear picture of what you have.


busdaddy wrote:
When I'm into big rewires like this I remove the speedo cluster, so much nicer to sit in the drivers seat and look down on all the wiring, opposed to the under dash limbo in the dark.
I'm with you on this one Busdaddy, my days of standing on my head working under the dash are done. If you disconnect the speedometer it gives you a little more room. You can pull the radio too.


Round Four

Let's call the emergency flasher the (E-switch)

Let's brake this down to, just the brake lights.

We know the Blk/red from the brake light switch is disconnected by the fuse box.
We think Green is on #54 on the E-switch.

1. Do you have the Ignition key on when testing the brake lights?

2.
a. where does the Black wire on the brake light switch go?
b. what color is the wire on #54f on the E-switch?
c. where does the wire go to, from #54f on the E-switch?
d. where does the (Black/red stripe) wire go to under the dash?
e. where does the (Blk/yellow stripe) wire go to under the dash.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here are two wiring diagrams out of multiple possibilities.
Who knows what the PO,s did.
It is of the utmost importance that you tell us accurately what wires go where.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Good Luck
Tcash
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Yarkle Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

option 1 is correct for the brakes, from what i just spent a few hours looking over.

I think, at this point,there is only one mid-late 69 setup, this is how it goes:

(im only talking output side except for fuse 9), 3-8 is as per the 68-69 diagram

Fuse 1: a/b: black/yellow and red jumper-piggyback connector-
a. black/yellow goes to a connector by frame, where one blk/yellow continues to horn, and a black wire goes to the brake switch..power to switch!
b. red goes to brake warning light
c: goes to terminal 15 on E switch
Fuse 2: two blacks, one goes to wiper switch, one goes to defrost

Fuse 9: two small red wires to dome lights...has fat red on ":input side" coming from the headlight switch

fuse 10: one fat red to E switch term 30

In garyb606s, case, Id say , since his setup looks identical to mine now (see discussion below),

1. the dangly black with red spots goes to the green wire in the wire connector, that goes to term 54 on hazard.
2. the black/red striped wire should go to a connector with a red/black that goes to turn signal switch
3. Id surmise that if there are three wires coming out of the loom by the brake switches:
a. black/red is going up to the green connector
b. one black is going to the brake warning light (could be the one he says is dangling)
c. one black wire should be powering the switches -could also be the dangling one

I suspect that the loom has a broken or cut wire in it, whose end should go to the connector where the horn wire splits off.

4. terminal 54F has a blk/purple wire that goes to the turn signal switch

how i came to this conclusion-i think that myself, garyb and coyotewarrior all had the same setup

Intrigued by Tcash's owners manual fuse schematic, I checked my buddys bus-whose wiring is exactly as i posted above.. I had two friends describe to me their fuse boxes, and one is exaclty as above, while the other is the aug 67 version,

I should have realized that there was something amiss, since my wiring was so hacked up to begin with. e.g PO decided to power the radio with a splice from the wiring going from fuse 1 to the e-switch

I climbed underneath my bus and re checked the wiring..now, mine had a black/red spotted wire, a black/yellow, and a black wire at fuse 1 per the early diagram. (but no blk, green, wht)

So i started poking around, and found that T connector to the horn...with no black wire installed. I peeled apart the wire tape, and found that there was an original wire that had been cut, and then the black/red wire had been put in there --so there were actually two black/reds in the loom

I suspect a PO must have looked at an early diagram, and just ran (a factory colored and wire connected..maybe stripped it from a 68 or early 69), and then just taped it up so it looked like it belonged there...it gets better...

So i then dissasembled my dash--

AND FOUND the red and blk/yellow piggyback wiring that should have been at fuse 1 stuffed up behind the dash..GRRR...ARRGH...HELL DAMN ASS!
I also found alot more halfassed splices...

so he basically disconnected the correct wires, and replaced them with with the wires for a early 69

I then traced all of the wires Tcash asked about, and I think this is the legit way .

Ill try and get a sketch like i originally did up in a day or two..pending any corretion by the wiring gurus.

Tcash, is there a way to put the correct sketch at the first post of this thread so future folks can find it without going through pages of stuff? and can we change it in the wiring section once I fix it?
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP


Last edited by Yarkle on Sat Apr 11, 2015 4:40 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, heres my first draft of how the wiring should look, Tcash, Busdaddy?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP


Last edited by Yarkle on Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:39 pm    Post subject: 69 wiring Reply with quote

Tcash, is there a way to put the correct sketch at the first post of this thread so future folks can find it without going through pages of stuff? and can we change it in the wiring section once I fix it?
Yes we can do that.

Nice job Yarcle.
Fuse 10 wire #10 would go to the Dome light switch.

So the brake light circuit would look like this?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Good evening
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garyb606
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:34 am    Post subject: 1969 Bay Brake Wiring Problem Reply with quote

OK. I have brake lights!
But, I got them the old-fashioned way.

Underneath, I connected the two brake light dangling switch wires together and ran an extension from the yellow stripe wire that goes to the horn. Just like from the video done by coyote warrior. Horn is not in circuit now it died.

Under dash I slid the green wire with plastic sleeve connector together with the red stripe wire and red dot wire.

What has been going on is; I have been watching the drivers side brake light with a wall mirror propped up against the garage door and could not see the other brake light. This time I cut a board and positioned it against the brake pedal bracing it against the seat frame and began walking to the rear of the bus with each fix attempt AND turning the key ON each trial. I have not always done that. I know that is dumb. I did not know that brake lights don't come on when ones foot is resting on the brake pedal and the key is off.

Now, I have pass. side brake light. The jumper wire that was not connected in the engine compartment and ran overhead the deck lid by hinges that I thought was an attempt by po to hook up trailer lights was being used as a jumper from pass. side brake light to drivers side brake light. I ran a new piece of wire from pass. side light to DS.
Brake lights work BUT the small brake light button on the dash now stays on.

I am guessing that a wire hookup is wrong, or my attempt to fool the system with a jumper wire was not entirely successful or one of the MC brake light switches is bad.

My sincerest THANK YOU ALL for your help, patience with me and not giving up on a dumb hillbilly with no automotive sense or abilities.

You guys are great.
Gary B
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tcash.,.yes that is the right routing for the brakes,

fuses 9 and 10...do i have them reversed? dome lights should be on 10, e-switch on 9, or all three on 10? (I think all 3 on ten, now that i reviewed the two diagrams..but going by the owners manual ones, they could all three be on 9 as well?)

LMK and ill fix it--

Garyb- Id say that until that black red wire is hooked up (not the one going to the green connector, the stripped one) is hooked up to the black red going to the connector under the dash, you are only going to see one light..

one thing ive noticed is depending on what light you are using--daylight, wire bulb, or led, the colors can get a little off...what i have is a blk/red coming from the turn switch that goes to that connector, that goes to a blk/red that goes down to the brake light, but in some lights, it looks more orange than red, and in other, more purple than red.

So id say what looks to be a purple wire, hook that up to the dangly blk/red and see what happens. I think its actually coming from the turn signal switch, not 54f

Also its not a 4 piece connector as shown on the 70 diagram, its a two piece

until you figure out the switches and the wiring for them, you are going to have that warning light on. Id say undo how you have them all tied together and isolate which one is powering the switches, and which one is going to the warning lamp. Once thats done, id recocmend you try the three switch solution and wire up per the diagram on p 4.

ASIDE: : When i originally researched this, Peter Good (UK wiring guy) said that he has retro'd all of his buses so that the instrument lamp wire (fuse 2 input side) , is on the OUTPUT side. He said that since its unfused, it could potentially be a fire hazard, and that it was the second highest cause of 68-69 bay bus fires in the UK. I see that in the 1970 diagram, VW adopted this measure as well.

Its kind of like fusing the coil wire, might not be a huge problem, but it makes sense from a safety standpoint.. Having had to escape from a burning vehicle on more than one occasion, Im thinking of doing it myself.

None of the burning vehicles were caused by unfused wires though..
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP


Last edited by Yarkle on Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:14 am; edited 6 times in total
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garyb606
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:32 am    Post subject: 1969 Bay Brake Wiring Problem Reply with quote

Here is what I found out about the TCash questions above.

1. Do you have the Ignition key on when testing the brake lights? No. I do now.

2.
a. where does the Black wire on the brake light switch go? To the small (B) brake light indicator.
b. what color is the wire on #54f on the E-switch? black with a purple stripe.
c. where does the wire go to, from #54f on the E-switch? goes to a plastic sleeve connector with a wire connector broken off in the opposite end no wire coming out. I had not noticed this before
d. where does the (Black/red stripe) wire go to under the dash? it disappears going down behind a lower panel and ends up on the right rear brake light.
e. where does the (Blk/yellow stripe) wire go to under the dash. goes to a plastic sleeve connector with a black/gray wire out.
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garyb606 Glad to her you got the brake lights working. Pull the light bulb out of the Brake light warning light. This will drain your battery if it stays on all the time. Modern cars do not require the ignition switch to be on to operate the brake lights. But your 69 does when wired correctly.

Note: If you are going to leave the key on for testing or to listen to the stereo. Disconnect the wire from terminal #15+ on the coil and put some tape around it, so it does not short out. If you don't do this you can fry the points or cook the coil.

When you are ready to dive in some more. Let us know?

Good Luck
Tcash
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good morning Yarkle
I would disregard the 12/67 & 11/68 fuse box layout. I noticed they both have Headlight Flasher on Fuse #9 (S9). To the best of my knowledge this was a Euro thing. I removed them, so members don't get confused.

Note: on the 8/67 & 8/68 fuse box diagram, that Fuse #9 (S9) is lablelled for (Interior light & Emergency blinker lights)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7626694#7626694

Fuse 9 (S9): Open the 68-69 diagram. There are three wires on S9,
Red 2.5 to #30 on J (relay)
Red 0.5 to Y (interior light)
Red 0.5 to J6 (interior light switch)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/baybus_6869a.jpg

Fuse #10 (S10):
Is used for the Radio and or an Accessories.

Sounds like we have the brake light circuit and fuse box nailed down.
Lets talk about the Turn signal and Emergency Flasher circuits
Do you have the 211 953 215 C Turn Signal Relay 4 terminal E-relay?
If it has not been hacked to bad. What color are the wires on it and where do they go?
#31
#K Bl
#49
#49,8

Tcash
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tcash..Ok, i think this is all set now, so unless theres something i missed/messed up, can you put it on the 1st page of the thread and in the wiring diagrams where the old sketch was?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I just got back from the where the bus is, so ill try and check that flasher this week sometime, next weekend at the latest.....I know it is the "C" flasher.

yeah, i was wondering about that dimmer relay thing, I looked around for it yesterday and couldnt find any wires going to it from 9 or 10. When i check out the flasher, ill trace the dimmer relay wires as well, im sure itll come up at some point.
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yarkle wrote:
Tcash..Ok, i think this is all set now, so unless there's something I missed/messed up, can you put it on the 1st page of the thread and in the wiring diagrams where the old sketch was?
Put it in your first post.
Sent a request to Everett to make the correction in the Wiring diagram section.


I just got back from the where the bus is, so ill try and check that flasher this week sometime, next weekend at the latest.....I know it is the "C" flasher.
No hurry, No worries, Supposed to be fun right!

yeah, i was wondering about that dimmer relay thing, I looked around for it yesterday and couldnt find any wires going to it from 9 or 10. When i check out the flasher, ill trace the dimmer relay wires as well, I'm sure It"ll come up at some point.
Your one step ahead of me. You know the Dimmer Relay is going to come up though.


Thank You and have a great week.
Tcash
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

K, heres what I found:

Flasher:

2 browns on one pin: 69 and 70 wire diagrams say pin 31, but i didnt see that, but it might be cuz of the piggyback connector

one goes to the instrument cluster, one goes to a prong on the body

KBL thin blue to turn signal warning light in instruments

49 white to + terminal on E switch

49a Piggy back: Blue wire piggybacked with a black/green wire: its piggybacked on the relay, not at a connector as shown in 69 and 70

So, with the exception of the wires being piggybacked isntead of a connector, and the two grounds, its as the 70 diagram, except the fuses are as per the 68 diagram (3 and 5 instead of 8 and 10)

blue goes to 49a on E switch,
black green turns into a black, green and white that goes into the turn signal switch..I imagine 54 on the turn signal switch

Dimmer:

311941583A

56a Yellow to input fuse 5
S Brown/white to turns switch (S?)
56 Black white to term 56 Head Light switch
F White to input side fuse 3

So, pretty much, the fuse layout follows the 68 diagram (3 and 5 instead of 8 and 10), but the relays follow the 70 diagram, with the exception that the wires on the flasher are piggybacked instead of the wire connectors shown on the diagram.
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Yarkle.
I will see what I can Gimp up.
Tcash
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

69 Fuse box, Turn relay, Headlight relay Pix
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Yarkle Premium Member
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Joined: August 03, 2009
Posts: 1100
Location: the Hills of Western Maine
Yarkle is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NICE!!!

Whered you find those? cuz I could use the brake harness, since I now know I have to redo mine and it just plugs into the horn connector
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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