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69 electrical hacks by PO, need advice
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coyotewarrior
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:56 pm    Post subject: still stuck Reply with quote

Thanks so much for your efforts Yarkie. I tried all the suggestions mentioned and no dice. I bought a new switch for the master cylinder as well and still no luck. I think I am going for plan B which is to buy a push button switch from autozone and rig it up to work with my brake pedal.
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Yarkle Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Switch? you should have two brake switches...do you have a 68/69 Master cylinder? They are pricey so Ive seen people try workarounds (e.g bug or buggy M/C), which "could" be what your problem is..

dunno if that would mimic the symptoms...but if you have two switches then disregard.
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:48 pm    Post subject: 70 brake light od Reply with quote

according to busdaddy the black wire coming from master cylinder goes to fuse block. I'm guessing to number one?
Black wire goes to #10 on the fuse box.
If you have the black wire hooked to #1. Turn on your Parking lights and the brake lights will work.

(assuming the brakes are bled and functional).
Are the brakes bled and functional?



Your almost there.
You hooked the black/red wire from #54 to the fuse box and the brake lights came on. So you know they work.
Take a look at this diagram and notice were the wires hook up to the brake light switches. Note: terminal
81 is the Black/red wire
82a is the Black wire from fuse #10
81a is the Red.

Thanks to J. Mais
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If you only have two wires on the brake switch. Black/Red one side Black on the other one.


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coyotewarrior
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:05 pm    Post subject: Whooooo hoooooo Reply with quote

Hell Yeah, Tcash you hella came through with the million dollar answer Exclamation Razz I was so frustrated I had given up, but you didn't let me throw in the towel, thanks for hanging in there.

So here is the mystery....

When looking at the 70 diagram you can see the yellow/black wire from the horn connects to the brake light switch and then goes to the fuse block, but here is the issue, in the wiring diagram it connects to the fuse third from the left, which you would think is #3 position, but it's actually #10 as mentioned by Tcash.

This is the confusing part The 69 only has 10 fuses and #10 is the last one on the right if you are looking at it from the fuses side. (or the bottom)

The 70 on the other hand has 12 fuses and #10 is the third one from the left.

This is really confusing because some wires correspond with the 69 diagram and others with the 70.

The whole time I had the black/red wire going to the #1 fuse on the 69 (10 fuses block) as indicated by Yarkie (which corresponds with the 68-69 diagram). I also had the black/yellow and red wire going to #1 fuse. But this is wrong for the 69 model that I own.

I have to follow the two switch three prong wiring diagram and connect the black and red to 54 on the Emergency Flasher switch and the black and yellow and red wire to #10 fuse (last one on right).

Thanks Yarkie, Tcash and Busdaddy for all your help. I have owned this bus since at least 2007 (can't remember) and have never had brake lights. I never really stressed about it til recently when I started to get some of the other major work done, I started tackling the details like the lights. I finally got them working and feel much safer and won't stress when a cop gets behind me.

I will post pictures tomorrow when the sun comes out with a picture of my wires connected correctly. Until then it's on to the carburetor to figure out why it won't idle any more, then the replacing the tie rod ends, and much more.


Last edited by coyotewarrior on Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:01 pm; edited 3 times in total
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coyotewarrior
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:30 pm    Post subject: wiring for 69 late model Reply with quote

Here are the pics from my fuse block before I had figured it out. the black and red wire from the brakes DOES NOT go to #1 on the fuse block, it goes to #54 on your Emergency Flasher switch, if you have a 69 built with two master cylinder switches.

The black and yellow horn and red brake wire go to #10 NOT #1 as seen here. again if you have a 1969 with two brake switches.

I will post a pic of how it should look tomorrow hopefully.

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Yarkle Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wierd..mien has two switches, but works as ive posted.

Aug of 69? does it have a brake booster like a 70 would? it might have been one of the last of the 69 model years..so i guess there are at least 3 styles:

68-early 69: uses the 68 diagram
mid 69 (like mine) uses my diagram
late late 69..uses this configuration , which seems alot more like the 70s..

weird
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

does it have a brake booster like a 70 would
Booster started in 71.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yarkle wrote:
Wierd..mien has two switches, but works as ive posted.

Aug of 69? does it have a brake booster like a 70 would? it might have been one of the last of the 69 model years..so i guess there are at least 3 styles:

68-early 69: uses the 68 diagram
mid 69 (like mine) uses my diagram
late late 69..uses this configuration , which seems alot more like the 70s..

weird


What is the third digit in your VIN number? That typically shows the model year. A vehicle built in August may well have been designed to meet the specifications for the following year, for VW in particular there is typically a lot of overlap between years as they worked new parts into the production line while using up their stock of old ones.
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wierd..mien has two switches, but works as ive posted.
Some of the replacement master cylinders only have one switch.

Master Cylinder ID (Pics)
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Yarkle Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tcash wrote:
does it have a brake booster like a 70 would
Booster started in 71.


DOWH!! sorry, i knew that there was some difference between the 68-69 (Q) and 70 (T) M/C, i guess my mind just plugged it in to having a booster.
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP


Last edited by Yarkle on Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:

What is the third digit in your VIN number? That typically shows the model year. A vehicle built in August may well have been designed to meet the specifications for the following year, for VW in particular there is typically a lot of overlap between years as they worked new parts into the production line while using up their stock of old ones.


thats what i was thinking, coyote must have a really late 69.
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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coyotewarrior
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:37 pm    Post subject: updated photos with correct wiring positions, brake lights Reply with quote

Here is the correct wiring positions for a 69 bus built July 31 1969. I had to add my own wire to get the black and red wire to reach the #54 spot on the emergency flasher.
The first picture is of my fuse block and my hand is holding the black and yellow wire that comes from the horn/brake switch. It is also crimped together with another red wire that goes to the brake light warning.
I will also add that in my mind this is the #10 spot on the fuse block and this is what caused so much confusion and frustration in my mind because the whole time, no where is it indicated that the black and red wire should go here. This is not explained in the Bentley Manual
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This picture is of the black and red wire that comes from the brake switch also and this goes to 54 on emergency flasher switch. I added my own wire so it could reach.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Last edited by coyotewarrior on Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:04 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Yarkle Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ummm..I wouldnt go so far as to say its the correct wiring for a 69 bus with a 2 switch master cylinder..

Id say its the correct way for one with your build date-late, late 69, if its making everything work right.

mid to late 69 would use the #1 fuses , not the #10. Cuz it works on mine, and about 7 other mid 69's people have Pm'd me about, plus thats what volksworks is using for their 69 harnesses for 2 switch brakes and the later hazard setup.

I am kind of puzzled as to why you had to extend the wiring..unless they had been previously cut, they should go from where they start and where they end without mods...but, as you can see form my pics, the PO did all sorts of shenanigans.

But , as i said before I'm no expert, and as wildthings said, who knows what they were doing back then during the switch from the 69 to 70 model year.
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP


Last edited by Yarkle on Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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coyotewarrior
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:07 pm    Post subject: Brake Warning Light Reply with quote

brake warning light, not sure if wires are correct, but just so you all could see what I'm talking about.
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Yarkle Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, thats what can be aggravating about these 69's, the brake warning light "should" be black, but its red. Same on mine, but just coming from fuse #1.

I had thought it was a PO hack,but its on a factory piggyback connector, and when i finally traced it, it was going to the right place.

I have surmised that they made so many little changes in 69 they didnt want to make several wiring diagrams to cover all of them, and just left it at the two we have today. which is weird for VW, but who knows?
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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coyotewarrior
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:20 pm    Post subject: model year changes in july for the vw bus, brake lights. Reply with quote

Turns out I have a July model, there were three editions of the 69 aug dec and july.

my vin starts 239189xxx
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Put a piece of heat shrink on that connector. Does two things, keeps it from shorting and pulling apart.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The red wire is in the right spot. We will get back to that.

One of the outer terminals is a (ground-) and one is (positive+). We need to figure out which is which?

1. Pull all three wires off.
2. Put the black wire in the middle where the red wire was.
3. Unplug the green wire from your distributor to Terminal #1, Neg- side of the coil so you don't fry your points or cook your coil while testing.
4. Turn the key on.
5. Hook the clip of your test light to the brown wire.
6. Touch the test light probe to the Black wire to make sure the Black wire has power and the test light is working and you have good ground.
7. No power check fuses, check ground.
8. Touch the probe to the outer terminals. See which one lights up the test light.
9. Key off.
10. Hook the Brown wire to the terminal that lit up the test light.
11. Hook the Black wire to the other.
12. Put the red wire back in the middle.

Test "B" bulb.
1.Key on
2. Push the Red "B" button and the light should light up. No light bulb is out.
3. Hook coil wire back up and your done.

Good Luck
Tcash
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or you could just clean up the back of the light and read the tiny terminal numbers on it then connect colors according to the diagram Wink
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coyotewarrior
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:58 pm    Post subject: video of me showing my wiring set up on a july 1969 bus. Reply with quote


Link
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:10 pm    Post subject: Wiring for 1969 VW BUS Reply with quote

I have been troubleshooting my 69 VW Bus Westfalia Hard top

I have this as my fuse layout and blowing fuse #1 and #10

Fuse #1 is my turn signals and blows whenever my brakes engage

Fuse #10 (far right side) glows Red when my Hazards are on and the fuel gauge rocks side to side with the hazards.

This just started a couple months ago when my radio shorted out, and since then I am bamboozled by the wiring.

Fuse #10 1. Black wire (cut) 2. Blue wire hanging empty 3. Red wire going to(or from) Hazards

Fuse #1 1. Yellow/Black wire from rear tail lights 2.Red/Black going into a connector to a Green wire to Hazards 3. Black wire to Steering column


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Is this even right? I have so many different layouts to my fuse in all these schematics... Does anyone else have a similar set up??
Or a similar situation where the brakes melt your fuse, and the Hazards make your other fuse glow red?
I think bad ground, but what wires do I chase, as they all seem to be going where the schematics show? All light bulbs and connections are checked and cleaned.

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