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69 electrical hacks by PO, need advice
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you physically confirmed that black/yellow wire goes into the rear harness?, or is it something your PO added with no regard to color and it goes somewhere else?
If it is the wire to the RH brake/signal the light would be on steady whenever the ignition was turned on.

Sometimes in cases like yours I cut the bleeding and remove the fusebox entirely, then comb out the wires and reattach each circuit according to the diagram.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This sounds like the wiring diagram you need, 10 fuses and a Bk/Y and Bk/R wire running to the #1 fuse. Note that these wires do not go to the tail lights, they are just the same colors. The Bk/R one does supply power to the brake like switches, while the Bk/Y one powers the horn.

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Also note that the diagram shows no 16A red fuses, so get those out of there unless you just like the smell of burnt wires.
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This just started a couple months ago when my radio shorted out, and since then I am bamboozled by the wiring.
Make sure none of the wires are stuck together.

#1 Fuse: R/Blk wire would be suspect.
#10 Fuse: Hazard switches are known for coming apart. Take a look at it.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:29 pm    Post subject: Back at it with the brake lights Reply with quote

Well brake lights still work, except for the left, due to a loose connection inside the housing, but it's brand new, so not sure what that's about. But now my battery is dead. Not sure what's killing my battery. Didn't start happening until I hooked up my brake lights to number 10. I will check my wires again to make sure the rest are hooked up correctly, but not sure what diagram to follow since my model isn't listed in either schematic. How could the brake lights kill the battery if they only come on when you press on them? Do they draw power even when off? or is something else hooked up where it's not supposed to be? What would draw power constantly even when the car is just parked?
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to the diagram above which seems to fit your rig #10 is the number 30 circuit which is hot all the time. Don't know what wire you hooked up to it but if there is no switch in the circuit, it would draw current all the time.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:32 am    Post subject: Brake light and battery Reply with quote

Turns out my battery was fine all along, it was my ignition switch that was bad. Just figured that one out when I had my battery tested and realized it was fine. Went to my local Vdub shop and the dude suggested I check my switch. Turns out he was right. Starts fine now. And brake lights are working still. Also replaced the fuse block so wires are a lot cleaner looking too. I also posted YouTube video of that.
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garyb606
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:51 am    Post subject: Bay window bus brake wiring Reply with quote

I am still having problems sorting out my 1969 Bay brake problem wiring. I do not know when it was built. I guess determining the build date would help me with which wiring diagram to go with.
Chassis number is: 239018233
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Yarkle Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

since youve got ten fuses, and two brake switches, Id say go with the sketch I posted on page 2 of my 69 thread. the second one on the page, where it says "TA-DA!", not the original mess I posted.

In your pictures its kind of hard to tell whats going on with the switches...look at the 1970 diagram that shows the two switch setup..

If you have two prong brake switches, swap them out for three prongs
If you have three prongs (i cant tell from pic), do all of the prongs have a wire coming from them?
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] "the Thing" thread:
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1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP


Last edited by Yarkle on Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:11 pm; edited 5 times in total
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: Bay window bus brake wiring Reply with quote

garyb606 wrote:
I am still having problems sorting out my 1969 Bay brake problem wiring. I do not know when it was built. I guess determining the build date would help me with which wiring diagram to go with.
Chassis number is: 239018233


As Telford asked in your last post. It would help to know which Turn Signal Relay you have?
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7619269#7619269

Tcash
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Yarkle Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im guessing youve got the 4 pin relay, yours seems to match mine, from what i can see anyways. On these particular 69s, the relay is screwed to the steering brace, near the dimmer relay- in front of the speedo. its not an upgrade, its the weird mid 69 setup.

Apparently thats different from the 70 setup, from what Telford wrote. I think its the same relay, just different location- I dunno never had a 70

However, it is entirely possible that the Po did change the relay at some point-so like Tcash said, you need to look under there and see if youve got the 9 pin, or a 4 pin. and where it is.

Also,I wrote my earlier post when I was home for lunch, but when i got back to work I was driving on my route and it sprung upon my like a spring!:

theres definitely some PO shenanigans with the brake switches, as they are missing their plastic connectors..in your pic, they are just clipped directly onto the switch. I suspect the PO replaced the three prongs with the two prongs.
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] "the Thing" thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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garyb606
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:56 pm    Post subject: 1969 Bay Brake Wiring Problem Reply with quote

Here is a photo that I took of the unit in question (I think). It feels that it is made of metal and rusty on top. It is a burred picture but KBL can be made out on the end that I shot with the camera. It has four wires.
Beginning on the left side of the unit is a brown wire piggybacked to a tan wire on that post, next to them going right is a white wire, next going to the right is a blue wire piggybacked to a black wire with a blue and white stripe and I can make out 49a next to it. Above these three post is another post with a skinny blue wire. This box is sitting on top of the steering wheel post support fastened with a sheet metal screw. Thanks
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garyb606
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:02 pm    Post subject: 1969 Bay Brake Wiring Problem Reply with quote

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garyb606
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:23 pm    Post subject: 1969 Bay Brake Wiring Problem Reply with quote

I forgot to add that all of the bulbs are good and if it means anything, when the emergency flasher is pulled out the front parking/turn signal indicators work but nothing in the rear.

The two plastic master cylinder sensor connectors are not present and it appears that they have been absent for a long time. I jiggled the connectors a bit when I first started trying to diagnose this problem and a fitting crumbled. I replaced it with a new blue one as shown in photo.
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Yarkle Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

how many prongs are on the master cylinder connectors?

Also, there seems to be some difference in this particular brand of 69 as to wire coloring, maybe thats why bentley never published it. On some of these, the wires on the #1 fuse are black (power to brake switches) then a yellow/blk and a red on the piggyback connector. yellow/blk is the horn, red is to the brake warning light.

look at the stuff coyotewarrior posted on page 4--and the youtube video he posted...if your wires match his, try it the way he did it. Im not sure the red and blk yellow go on # 10, but it seemed to work for him--I think he might have been getting mixed up with the 12 fuse diagram

Let me check this weekend when i can get to the bus, I suspect your wiring might be that way, in that case, the blk/red should go to term 54 on the hazard switch...now, that might actually be the green wire that has the connector on it, id need to double check mine and see. --i think thats why coyotewarriors wire was too short, he didnt see there was a connector danglign somewheres (or it was gone)

I remember when skills was putting euro tail lights in, he reported:" it *should* be black/red, but on my bus it was yellow" Confused

also, can you trace where that stripped black and red wire is coming from? I think it shoudl be going to either a conenctor that goes to your turn signal switch or directly ot the switc (i havent had to delve that deep into mine...yet)

once I check mine and my friends, I may have to update my sketch for the 69's
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] "the Thing" thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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garyb606
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:05 pm    Post subject: 1969 Bay Brake Wiring Problem Reply with quote

Brake switch sensors (2) prong.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/medium/1333249.jpg


https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/medium/1333248.jpg
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Yarkle Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, thats part of your problem, you should have the three prong switches. on page 4 Tcash posted a pic of what wire goes where on them.

Once thats fixed, you need to chase down where the red spotted wire goes, which im reasonable confident goes to the green wire -which goes to 54 on the hazard, but ill have to physically check my friends to say for sure.

Even though it might get a bit confusing, you might want to read through all 5 pages of this thread, alot of the issues on this thorny problem have been discussed and solved.

e.g. page 3 (I had forgotten i posted this):

from the M/C: one is black, one is black and red..black and red goes directly to term 54.

Black hits a connector and then becomes black and red and goes to fuse 1

He then checked my VW notes on computer (i cant access from iphone) looking at my notes from peter good in england, he says:

"Fuse 1 OUTPUT SIDE To Brake Sw Could be Black or Black Red"
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] "the Thing" thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plug this Black wire with Red dots circled in red.
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Onto the connector shared with this wire. Circled in red. On fuse #1.
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Test your lights.

Good Luck
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:28 pm    Post subject: 68-69 wiring Reply with quote

I just realized there is:
A 68-69 diagram with a 10 fuse, 9 pin turn signal relay.
A 70 diagram with a 12 fuse, 4 pin turn signal relay.

But no
68-70 10 fuse, 4 pin turn signal relay.

And the parts manual list the 4 pin turn signal relay 211 953 215 C for:
218 098 286 to 218 220 000 ,
219 000 001 to 210 2300 000
68-70

Does anyone have a 68-70 10 fuse, 4 pin turn signal relay wiring diagram they could share?

Thank You
Tcash


Last edited by Tcash on Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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Yarkle Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tcash, no official diagram exist- thats what this whole thread is about! I did alot of research, and posted the hows and the whys along the 5 pages, but heres the gist:

"When VW abandoned the `67/`68-style hazard flasher system in mid`69 Bentley never published a proper diagram to reflect the change. Same goes for the change from three 2-prong brakelight switches to two 3-prongs. Follow the `70 diagram for these circuits on a late `69, but power them from the appropriate fuses rather than the ones shown for the 12-fuse panel. "

so what it comes down to is theres 10 fuses, two brake switches, and a 4 pin relay

my sketch on page 2 fixes the problem for SOME of these 69s...but coyotewarrior and my friend moe showed me at least 2 69s that are a little bit different.

In this case, im not so sure that red/black goes to fuse 1...it might, if its like mine, but it might not, if its like coyotewarriors-I think it might go to that green connector, which i think goes to term 54.

I think there are two types of 69 that arent shown on the bentley:

fuse box:

1. fuse 1 has black and red (to brake switches), blk/yellow/ to horn, black to brake warning light.

2. fuse 1 has a black that goes to brake switch, blk/yellow to horn-double connector that has a RED that goes to brake warning

Brake Switches:

1. red that goes back to brake warning, black /red that goes back to term 54

2. black that goes back to brake warning, black /red that goes to (I THINK) green connector to term 54

BUT--and i cant tell until i can get to my bus...that green connector may actually go to a black wire from fuse #2, and the green wire may go to term 15 on the hazard switch.

I dont know WHY they had to reuse the black/red wire in the different 69s , it seems thats the cause of most of the confusion. and why do wires change color sometimes when they hit a connector

Once we get this sorted, Im going to have to update the sketch to show the two different permutations and have everett post them to the wiring diagrams like he did with my original.

On the 10-fuse panel, the first & 2nd fuses are Term 15 (ignition-switched) - brakelight switches, wiper switch, horn, and Term 15 power to the 4-way switch all need to come from these two fuses. The 9th & 10th fuses are Term 30 (unswitched power) - they feed Term 30 on the 4-way switch and the dome lamps, and possibly the radio or other unswitched accessory (clock, cigar lighter, etc.)
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] "the Thing" thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see.
So garyb606 may just need to plug the Black/red dots, wire into the green wire?
It seems to easy that they are just hanging there next to each other.

What you are saying about the green wire makes sense. If you take the 9 pin relay out and add the 9 pin E-Switch, Green would go to 54 on the E-Switch.
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The only time I have noticed wires changing color is when the circuit function changes. Like the Black to Black/yellow on the 70 horn circuit.

When you get the diagram nailed down let me know and maybe I can do something with Gimp.

Tcash


Last edited by Tcash on Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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