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The Adventures of Smokey and Sugaree
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J & W
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:18 pm    Post subject: The Adventures of Smokey and Sugaree Reply with quote

Hey everyone! I figured Iíd start documenting all the work I do on my bus and bug because lately, it seems like Iíve been doing a lot. Iím new to the VW world and spend a lot of time on here trying to diagnose all the fixes and what not needed to be done with these old cars.

I bought my first VW bus in May of 2019 and dove right down the rabbit hole! Growing up I was never much of a mechanic. I had a buddy who was, and he was nice enough to always pretty much do everything for me (bless him!!)!

I wanted a bus because well, they are sweet! And I wanted to learn more about mechanics and engines and how cars work. Everyone always says volkswagens are so simple and easiest to learn on.

Since then I have bought and sold a Ď74 bug and bought a Ď67 bug. So here we go! Letís keep shooting our shots!
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J & W
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:44 pm    Post subject: Re: The Adventures of Smokey and Sugaree Reply with quote

Post intro,

Letís talk about where at Iím with the Bus... and bug but mostly the bus.

Unfortunately, neither of them running well at the moment when it seemed like just a few weeks ago they were both ripping!! Iíve learned about how the bug works a bit quicker than the bus. Thatís just because the bug has had more problems to fix tho! Ha! For now, itís fuel problems with both.

The bus has been super solid until about a week ago, it was idling in my driveway and after revving up the throttle a couple times, it just stalled out and wouldnít start again. I was super confused because itís never happened like this with the bus. Usually runs like a top! Engine turns over fine, but wonít start.

I tested for spark, yup got that! *shocked*
Changed spark plugs. (First time ever doing so myself (with guidance) on a car))
Changed points and condenser. (First time ever myself) went well!

Realized I had spark so I went for the fuel next.. took off the top of the carb and looked down as I pumped the throttle and no fuel. Didnít seem like the accelerator pump was working. I hadnít messed with a progressive carb before so I didnít know how to take off the top and check the bowl yet. (Only done so with my bug solex carbs).

Figured Iíd rebuild the carb so I took it off the manifold and after quickly learning taking off the top is nearly as easy as the bug carb, I found the bowl empty. No fuel for the accelerator pump to do itís job. After realizing the guys at the parts store gave me the wrong rebuild kit (even though I asked twice to make sure itís the right one). I just did an express clean and reused the old gaskets. Blew out all the jets and sprayed it down with carb cleaner.

I put a small amount of gas in the bowl and threw it back on the manifold. Cranked it over, and hello! It fired up for a short second and then died again. Gave me hope!

I now think either the electric fuel pump, or fuel pump relay are bad. Gonna buy a new relay tomorrow and try that first!

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vic74westy
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:23 am    Post subject: Re: The Adventures of Smokey and Sugaree Reply with quote

Nice looking vdubs there! Sounds like you're on the right track. Since your bus is a 74 it would have originally had a mechanical pump and parts suppliers won't list a relay for a 74(I think some CA 74's may have had fuel injection and electric pumps, but they wont work with carbs). Many 74's (including mine) have been fitted with 2.0 liter engines that won't work with mechanical pumps. Mine has a "facet" type electric pump mounted on the firewall that is wired without a relay. Does your fuel pump show any signs of life when the key is on? Mine clacks and vibrates a bit when it's energized. Or do you have a mechanical pump mounted at the lower left at the front of the engine? Follow the fuel lines and see what they lead to if your nor sure.
I assume that you have checked or replaced the fuel filter. Clogged filters or debris in gas tanks blocking the outlet are pretty common. Not trying to be insulting but yer not outta gas are ya? Sometimes gas gauges on these beasts are not all that accurate. Hope this helps you a bit. Good luck and see you at the jubilee!
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J & W
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:50 pm    Post subject: Re: The Adventures of Smokey and Sugaree Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply vic!

Itís got a 2.0 engine with hydraulic lifters. Electric fuel pump. Also has a fuel shut off valve. I replaced these 3 relays today. Got it to fire a couple times but still wonít run. Still doesnít seem to be getting fuel to the carb. Yes itís full of gas lol

Inline filter is after the tank, before the electric fuel pump (both underneath the bus), next it goes to the shut off valve which is mounted on the firewall in the engine bay, then to the carb.

Relays mounted on the passenger side of the engine by the battery.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:27 pm    Post subject: Re: The Adventures of Smokey and Sugaree Reply with quote

holy shit

my OCD isn't handling that wiring job very well. fill the float bowl with fuel and see what you have. it could be that rube goldberg relay situation you have going on there
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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TomWesty
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:43 pm    Post subject: Re: The Adventures of Smokey and Sugaree Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
holy shit

my OCD isn't handling that wiring job very well. fill the float bowl with fuel and see what you have. it could be that rube goldberg relay situation you have going on there
Triple relay? Cool
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:33 pm    Post subject: Re: The Adventures of Smokey and Sugaree Reply with quote

After carefully filling the bowl with fuel like Skills said, if it stalls in 10~20 seconds, check the fuel pump pressure with a gauge that doesn't go above 50psi. You want 2-4 psi ish.

You can remove the fuel line from the carb and put it into an empty jerry can. Run the fuel pump with the ignition switch for a few seconds, and check that fuel starts filling the can. It should be clean, clear, and plentiful. Fire extinguisher nearby and all PPE, of course.

If by chance that "Sale on Red Wire" actually works and gives the fuel pump power with the key on, go buy a lotto ticket and then troubleshoot the carburetor needle vale with some carb/choke spray.

Good luck,
Robbie
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vic74westy
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:22 pm    Post subject: Re: The Adventures of Smokey and Sugaree Reply with quote

Is that an electronic shut off valve? I would temporarily remove it and bypass the relays by connecting the fuel pump directly to 12v and see if it fires. Is the filter full of fuel? Kinda of hard to tell from the picture.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:08 pm    Post subject: Re: The Adventures of Smokey and Sugaree Reply with quote

asiab3 wrote:

If by chance that "Sale on Red Wire" actually works


TomWesty wrote:
Triple relay? Cool


you guys are killing me Laughing well played Very Happy
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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J & W
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:38 pm    Post subject: Re: The Adventures of Smokey and Sugaree Reply with quote

Yes electronic shut off valve. I know that is getting power because yesterday I took the fuel line off the carb and sucked on it. Nothing came out. Turned the key and sucked on hose again, fuel came out, but wouldnít flow constantly. (I was trying to get some fuel in the carb bowl when trying this).

I donít hear any sound from the electronic fuel pump when I turn the key, nor do I get any flow of fuel when I turn the key. I do hear a click from the back at the cut off valve when the key is turned.

Iím now assuming bad fuel pump, which is what is wrong with my beetle at the moment. But weíll see.

Vic, how can I connect the fuel pump directly to 12v? Iím still learning about wiring and how it all works.

Thanks for all your responses!
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: The Adventures of Smokey and Sugaree Reply with quote

While teaching electricity is not something anybody can do in one post, think of current like water pressure/pipes.

Water pressure = Voltage
Amount of flow = Amperage
Blockage in the pipe or a controllable valve = Resistance (measured in ohms)

The different connectors are just like various fittings, all designed for different uses. Feelin' it? Razz

Just like water, voltage needs a "drain" that's the negative, ("ground" as the car world saysÖ Rolling Eyes) All the electrons need a path to/from the component in question and the negative post of the battery, so VW uses the metal chassis of the car instead of running hundreds of individual brown wires. (You'll grow to hate fiberglass boat hull electronics in due timeÖÖ)

You need voltage (electrical pressure) at your fuel pump, and it can be measured with a volt meter, or with a test light. Connect the + end of either to the + terminal/wire of the fuel pump, and the - clip or post to a clean metal "ground." Most good digital Voltmeters will read fine reversed; they'll just show a negative sign in front of the correct reading. A 12v test light needs to be hooked up correctly.

Most electric fuel pumps are wired to the ignition switch. This gets the car out of the shop fastest. The next level up is to use a relay to take the fuel pump current load off of the precious ignition switch, (like turning on your sprinklers with a switch instead of manually rotating the ball valve every time.) The best way is to use your charging "idiot light" wire to trigger a relay, so the fuel pump only works when the engine is running on its own. (Fuel pump then shuts off in a stall or accident.)

Figure out what the heck those relays are doing, and where they connect to dirty old wires, then we can help you sleuth.

Robbie
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vic74westy
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:37 pm    Post subject: Re: The Adventures of Smokey and Sugaree Reply with quote

I would just hold the leads to the battery and see if the pump activates. Polarity matters so make sure you know which is + and which is -. The pump should be marked. My fuel pump connects to the + side of the coil. This set up is simple and effective but not the safest. I'm not an expert on wiring but I'm sure some will chime in. I know relays can be used to allow the fuel pump to energize when the engine is cranking and running but kill power to it when the engine is not running and the key is on. This is a safety feature in case of an accident and ruptured fuel nine. The fuel pump will shut off as soon as the engine stops and it doesn't require the (possibly unconscious) driver to turn off the key to prevent the flow of fuel.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=344965&highlight=fuel+pump+relay
It very likely could just be a bad crimp connection. You may be able to wiggle those crimp connections while the key is on and find the culprit, assuming everything is still hooked up.
Your best bet may be to determine if the pump and shutoff valve are working and start from scratch on the wiring. I'm not sure if all three of those relays are for the fuel system but it looks like you may be able to simplify things. A good quality crimp tool and connectors are well worth the investment and will save you a lot of headaches in the future.

The shutoff relay is a good idea and on my to do list. Looks like the previous owner incorporated some important safety features with the shutoff valve and the relays. Just keep in mind that less than great crimp connections are a very common point of failure.
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J & W
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:28 pm    Post subject: Re: The Adventures of Smokey and Sugaree Reply with quote

Thanks for the responses Robbie and Vic!

From my tracking, it seems like one relay goes to the fuel shut off valve, one goes to the fuel pump, and I believe one goes to the starter solenoid. Or something else under the bus. Iíll track them better another day to make sure. Iíll definitely invest in a solid crimping too and looks like Iíll be getting some wiring and connectors while Iím at it.
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J & W
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: The Adventures of Smokey and Sugaree Reply with quote

I ended up changing the fuel pump and problem solved!! Airtex electronic fuel pump part #E8016S rated for 2.5 - 4.5 psi. Pump works great and isnít too noisy. Tach doesnít bounce anymore either. New spark plugs, points and condenser along the way. Weíre back in business!! Thanks for all your help!
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:50 am    Post subject: Re: The Adventures of Smokey and Sugaree Reply with quote

You need to get rid of every single one of those drug store cheap hose clamps and replace the wiring the closed band type. The open teeth type cut the rubber but also loosen with vibration and time.

Oetiker clamps would be the real mechanics choice, with closed clamps on the fuel filter for servicing.
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