| Author |
Message |
rotaecho
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2012
Posts: 513
Location: Nomadic Vanlifer
|
 Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:58 pm Post subject: SHOCKS - What's best on your back? |
 |
|
Howdy! I'm redoing my suspension soon and in the process of buying/collecting the parts before I can do it.
Where I am at now is with the following; SmallCar front & back brake kits with some T3 goodies to go with it, also T3 Steering Rack Bushing Set so my steering isn't so loose at the wheel, SS brake hoses, 16" CLK320s (215/60/16 Falken ZIEX ZE950's). I have to lift the van 1.5", because I'm installing the larger GW propane tank, so I think I'll want the extra clearance.
Some say you can't make a Westy feel like a comfy luxury cars others say you can. That being said, I LOVE my Westy, and of most of my cars, it's actually been the most comfortable. I had a Honda Civic that hurt my back something fierce up till a few months back where I switched to the Westy as the primary.
I'm disabled with major back, leg & arm strength issues. A lot of jolting / bumps really messes me up after awhile driving which was REAL noticeable in the Civic I had. The Westy isn't so bad, but I'd like to make it better if possible, as it has become my daily driver. Not feeling every bump, but being able to take a dip on a dirt road would be a grand thing.
Being a Westy, I do like to take the not-so-beaten path. I'm not 4x4ing or doing crazy Syncro stuff, but I do go down bumpy dirt roads often. Roads I took my Civic on when I had it and where I had to replace my CVs a few times.
That being said, do any of you have similar back issues who have tired to find a good middle ground of street & off-road (dirt road) performance regarding the springs (1.5") and shocks?
If so what combinations worked well for you?
This is all also part of preparation for my upcoming 1.9TD conversion project, so brakes/suspension is the current tackle.
The forum opinions I've read which may be outdated since some posts were old and use has been given to the components.
1.5" GW Lift Springs looking at these which I have been told are the same as the VC springs. I have read more positive reviews of this on a 2wd Westy.
For the shocks, I've heard for a street & off-road driving that the Bilstein's are not such a great deal. It's either one or the other.
The GW Fox all-terrain led people to recommending adjustable Koni's; however, adding an 'shock extender' and having to butcher an old shock to make it work with a 1.5" lift (which may be different since the post was older) seems like adding more complication than it's worth or is it?
So, what's a good shock for both types of driving that's fairly good on the back is ultimately what this post is getting to 
Thanks everyone!
_________________
-Will
1982 Westfalia mTDI (50deg) aka Betsy Bertha
http://www.tdivanagons.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
hans j
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2006
Posts: 2714
Location: Salt Lake City UT
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Personally, my Bilsteins are amazing both on road and off road. I had them custom valved for what I wanted. They get even better off road with deflated tires.
Best advice is to find someone local to you with different shocks and take a ride in their van to feel the difference.
_________________
1986 Canadian Syncro Westy TDI - 1989 Syncro Single Cab - 2001 Audi S4 - 1981 VW Caddy ABA - 1980 VW Caddy EV - 1973 VW T-181 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32592
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
KYBs.....kill your back, stay away  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wesitarz
Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2012
Posts: 1490
Location: Victoria,B.C.Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
Had KYBs on my 2wd for years and liked them but they wear out after a few years. Got Bilsteins at a good price on EBay,but hated them - too bouncy. Not to my liking. Went back to stiffer KYBs from Tire Rack. Now Bilsteins are priced out of this world.
88 Wolfsburg auto with 02 Subaru 2.5L |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Konis are far superior to KYBs |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
joetiger 
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2005
Posts: 5078
Location: denver
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
I had Alko oil-filled rear shocks from Bus Depot on mine for awhile a few years back. They were the smoothest riding shock I've found. Unfortunately, they didn't last very long. One of them blew its seals and started leaking about 20k miles in, and this was from regular on-road use. They rode like butter, though.
I can't find a link to them on the BD site so I don't know if they're still available, but it might be worth a call to Ron.
Otherwise, why not look at the OEM Boge shocks? They were designed for a better ride and less harshness than a high performance shock like Bilstein or Koni, or for rattling out your fillings like KYB's.
Here's a link to the HD Boge shocks:
http://www.busdepot.com/251513031fhd
I have the Bilstein HD's and I think they're fantastic. Some have said that they're too soft, but I think they're a perfect combination of comfort and firmness.
_________________
Joe T.
'86 NAHT Vanagon GL Syncro/ supercharged ABA 2.0 "Pigpen"
'04 GTI 1.8T
'04 Golf R32
"get metaphysical with it. if it's simply a means to get to and from places, it will let you down. if it becomes your zen, it can't fail you." -dabaron
"Still, it's good to be afield."--VWagabond
Available Now! Vanagon to Louisiana--A Two-Lane Reckoning Through Past and Present
www.josephtrussell.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5390
Location: PNW
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
It always amazes me how many different tastes and opinions there are concerning ride quality. Some people prefer the softer ride of a stock Vanagon and are okay with the body movement that comes with that and others can't stand the body movement and install stiffer springs and/or dampers and feel that the harsher/stiffer ride quality equates to better handling.
I'm not saying that anyone's opinion is more right or better than another, but keep in mind that in order to achieve proper handling, the suspension needs to be soft enough to allow the tires to follow the contours of the road surface.
If your suspension is too stiff (or your tire pressure too high), the tire(s) can become unweighted (or literally come off the ground in extreme cases) which reduces the amount of traction available to that tire (or tires). Given the variety of different terrains that our vans see, when it comes to traction (which ultimately is the bottom line when it comes to handling), you are usually better off having some amount of body roll or pitch with a slightly softer suspension than you are having very little body movement with a stiffer suspension. The suspension needs to be able to articulate and react quickly to the road surface. Dampers like KYBs have very poor quality high speed (damper speed, not vehicle speed) damping qualities. They nearly lock up solid when faced with things like pot holes and expansion joints. They just can't react quickly enough. Conversely, a higher quality damper can react quickly to the quick, sharp road irregularities and still maintain control of the springs on the slower speed (damper speed, not road speed) irregularities.
Just something to think about when considering stiffer springs and/or dampers.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
t3 kopf
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2012
Posts: 1115
Location: over by 'der
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
I run kyb in the back and i cant wait to replace them. It feels like im running with no shocks at all, but the ones i replaced were so dead they compressed in my hand just by gravity
_________________
'90 Carat w/ '95 phase 1 EJ22 OBD2 conversion |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| t3 kopf wrote: |
| I run kyb in the back and i cant wait to replace them. It feels like im running with no shocks at all, but the ones i replaced were so dead they compressed in my hand just by gravity |
And that was a good set.
Avoid at all costs.
Most definitely my opinion..... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rotaecho
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2012
Posts: 513
Location: Nomadic Vanlifer
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yeah, right now I'm totally stock and a lot of squeaking. I can move it around easily on either side by just moving the van around each corner.
I know loosing the MPG going higher and all that jazz, but I want the extra clearance with the GW larger propane I bought awhile back.
My Honda was very stiff and hence I felt all the bumps which is what I'm trying to avoid.
So, yes, I want the cushion ride that can handle a pot-hole or a dip in a dirt road to create less impact on the back.
Some have suggested going back to 15"s which I may do, but the existing wheels & tires mentioned have already been purchased, so 15s would be down the road again.
Maybe replacing the shocks with new OEM shocks it may even a better option for the Westy.
Look forward to more input
_________________
-Will
1982 Westfalia mTDI (50deg) aka Betsy Bertha
http://www.tdivanagons.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16503
Location: Brookeville, MD
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vanagonjr
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2010
Posts: 3431
Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rotaecho
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2012
Posts: 513
Location: Nomadic Vanlifer
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
Dobryan,
Well, I already have the large propane tank purchased (not installed yet) which I liked because of the more space and being able to see the fuel gauge. I got it awhile back with the intention for the lift after reading about the clearance.
At the time I didn't think you could get the same results with two tanks (my stock is shot so would be two new tanks) with fuel controls (didn't see the offerings). In the end I opt to get the single larger tank that had a stock mount and fuel gauge already installed.
So, either I spend more money on two tanks and take a loss on the GW Larger tank till I sell it or get the lift for $300. The lift seems like the cheaper option, because of the scenario presented to me.
Nice suggestion though
| dobryan wrote: |
| Off topic, but did you consider adding a second stock propane tank to the passenger side to increase your propane capacity vs the larger GW tank? This would avoid spending bucks on the 1.5 inch lift and allow you to go with a more stock suspension setup. Just a thought. |
_________________
-Will
1982 Westfalia mTDI (50deg) aka Betsy Bertha
http://www.tdivanagons.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hans j
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2006
Posts: 2714
Location: Salt Lake City UT
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
Stock shocks, stock tire profile ratio, new rubber bushings, and correct tire sizes are going to make the best ride. just as the factory designed.
Boge shocks are probably going to be your best option for a stock comfort ride.
Shocks don't typically squeak, bushings do. And mostly upper control arm bushings or upper ball joints squeak.
Unfortunately, it will take some time to sort your needs for a cushy ride. Ride comfort is based upon spring frequency (188 divided by square root of static compression (weight/rate) divided by 60). The most comfortable rate is about 1hz for passenger cars. It just gets more firm from that point up and the vanagon has more payload capacity than the typical passenger car, so the frequency is higher. Most van springs I have calculated are higher than that since there is quite a bit of weight involved and very little spring travel. Unfortunately, I can only speculate on the aftermarket springs since rates aren't published.
For me, my on highway feel is slightly firm. According to the girlfriend meter, it's much softer than my S4 with Bilstein PSS9 coilovers and my Mk1 Caddy with Mk3 shocks and springs up front.
Off road though, it's nice and it soaks up a lot more than the stock suspension. When I deflate the tires, the off road ride is incredible.
So you might want to mess around with shocks for the good, on road feel and invest in a tire pump for off road. Tires do actually provide a bit of suspension themselves, and the original engineers selected appropriate tire sizes.
So get out and find some other vanagons to ride in, it will shorten your learning curve and keep money in your wallet! Or sit down, do some math and spend some money on the really good stuff.
_________________
1986 Canadian Syncro Westy TDI - 1989 Syncro Single Cab - 2001 Audi S4 - 1981 VW Caddy ABA - 1980 VW Caddy EV - 1973 VW T-181 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
