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climberjohn
Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2005
Posts: 1840
Location: Portland Orygun
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 Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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Marinas often have ethanol free gasoline as well. I look for it when on the OR coast. And that smart phone app works pretty well too.
CJ
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'86 Westy, 2.5 Subaru power
Know your limits. Exceed them often. |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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We burned 5 gallons of Efree in the quads last night.
I was thinking of all the skeptics while having a blast.
All first kick machines coming from our barn 
The only fellow to have any issues whatsoever was the one who brought pump gas and added stabilizer to it.
We topped him off after the ride with the good stuff and told him where to get it. |
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SCP_Austin
Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2009
Posts: 366
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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It is actually illegal to run non-road based fuels. Big fines if you get caught!
Show you evidence of E10 causing rust?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeCyFxoWPpo
Water causes rust. Ethanol is an alcohol with a desire to find water based on its molecular formula. It increases water found in the fuel system because it naturally attracts water.
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#leftlanelife |
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photogdave
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 3053
Location: Vancouver Island, B.C.
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SCP_Austin
Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2009
Posts: 366
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Ethanol attracts water. That is the point of this video. This is bad for engines and the metal interior of the gas tank.
Theoretically...E-free should be cheaper. Do some reading on the "Blend-wall."
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#leftlanelife |
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Yondermtn
Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2007
Posts: 609
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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I started using this stuff ( http://www.trufuel50.com/ ) in my small engines. I don't use much fuel in them so the increased cost isn't an issue. Fortunately I do most of my camping/Westy driving in places with ethanol free gas available.
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1977 Westfalia 2.0FI 4spd
1990 Multivan 2.1 Auto |
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jackbombay
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2007
Posts: 2723
Location: Eastern Idaho
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GeorgeL
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2006
Posts: 7346
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Fiatdude wrote: |
| There is e free gas at every small airport that sales AvGas - 100LL - even has a small amount of lead to lubricate your valves like the good old days -- about a buck more a gallon |
100LL has different volatility than mogas. Starting can be a problem in cold weather.
BTW, "LL" stands for low lead by *aviation* standards. It actually has quite a lot of lead by mogas standards, compared to when mogas had lead. Lead fouling is a distinct possibility! |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50348
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| There is a bill before Congress to get rid of the alcohol mandate. Write or call your senators and congressmmen asking that they support this bill. While bitching on Samba and other forums is great, contacting you representatives in Washington is going to be way more effective. |
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buildyourown
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2009
Posts: 1668
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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The biggest use of ethanol is as an octane booster.
Considering the alternatives of MMT or lead, I'll take the e10.
Any anybody who pines for the good 'ole days of leaded gas must have eaten too much dirt out of their front yard as a kid. Urban lead pollution continues to be a public health issue. |
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morymob
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2007
Posts: 4683
Location: east-tn
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| We have the pure type around and having tried the only diff i could tell was the price, no better or worse mi. |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| There is a bill before Congress to get rid of the alcohol mandate. Write or call your senators and congressmmen asking that they support this bill. While bitching on Samba and other forums is great, contacting you representatives in Washington is going to be way more effective. |
Wildthings for President 
Thank you Sir. |
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morymob
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2007
Posts: 4683
Location: east-tn
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| My vote is in the mail!! |
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GeorgeL
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2006
Posts: 7346
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| ute wrote: |
| Ethanol attracts water. That is the point of this video. This is bad for engines and the metal interior of the gas tank. |
The ethanol used in US fuels is anhydrous, which means that it can absorb water. In theory, this is a good thing because it will absorb any residual water that is in the fuel tank sump (below the outlet) and carry it through the system. The "fuel drier" commonly added to gas tanks to remove water contamination is anhydrous alcohol!
Unless you get a lot of water in your tank, there should be no separated water in it if you are using gasoline with alcohol.
Ironically, Japanese and European studies have show that anhydrous ethanol itself is more corrosive to fuel systems than hydrous ethanol, so there are pilot programs in Europe and Brasil using hE15 mixtures. Yes, they are intentionally saturating the ethanol with 5% water in order to reduce corrosion! Of course, this will also reduce fuel value by reducing the amount of combustible fuel available and by requiring energy to vaporize the added water during combustion.
The sad thing is that the entire alcohol fuels program is just a pork barrel for the inefficient biofuel industry. The industry promised years ago that they would develop cheaper cellulose sources for ethanol if they were given subsidies and price guarantees. They obviously lied but they want the government to keep the money tap open.
Everyone, except the corn farmers and ethanol distillers, would be far better off if they just used pure gas. Gas and food prices would go down, fuel mileage would improve, and our cars would last longer and require less maintenance.
Unfortunately it is difficult to fight the people who run the Iowa caucuses that control who gets to run the show. |
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morymob
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2007
Posts: 4683
Location: east-tn
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I have a glass jar, one olives come in, tall skinny & i at times i fill it with gas and leave sit for a couple days, u will be surprised most times how it separates . Water will always be on bottom. |
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morymob
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2007
Posts: 4683
Location: east-tn
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| GeorgeL wrote: |
| ute wrote: |
| Ethanol attracts water. That is the point of this video. This is bad for engines and the metal interior of the gas tank. |
The ethanol used in US fuels is anhydrous, which means that it can absorb water. In theory, this is a good thing because it will absorb any residual water that is in the fuel tank sump (below the outlet) and carry it through the system. The "fuel drier" commonly added to gas tanks to remove water contamination is anhydrous alcohol!
Unless you get a lot of water in your tank, there should be no separated water in it if you are using gasoline with alcohol.
Ironically, Japanese and European studies have show that anhydrous ethanol itself is more corrosive to fuel systems than hydrous ethanol, so there are pilot programs in Europe and Brasil using hE15 mixtures. Yes, they are intentionally saturating the ethanol with 5% water in order to reduce corrosion! Of course, this will also reduce fuel value by reducing the amount of combustible fuel available and by requiring energy to vaporize the added water during combustion.
The sad thing is that the entire alcohol fuels program is just a pork barrel for the inefficient biofuel industry. The industry promised years ago that they would develop cheaper cellulose sources for ethanol if they were given subsidies and price guarantees. They obviously lied but they want the government to keep the money tap open.
Everyone, except the corn farmers and ethanol distillers, would be far better off if they just used pure gas. Gas and food prices would go down, fuel mileage would improve, and our cars would last longer and require less maintenance.
Unfortunately it is difficult to fight the people who run the Iowa caucuses that control who gets to run the show. |
A Q $ Y. If u come with a new 'act' and tax payer would put u in a growing business, good or bad, would u do it ?? |
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zeohsix
Samba Member
Joined: August 31, 2012
Posts: 501
Location: United States
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| GeorgeL wrote: |
| Fiatdude wrote: |
| There is e free gas at every small airport that sales AvGas - 100LL - even has a small amount of lead to lubricate your valves like the good old days -- about a buck more a gallon |
100LL has different volatility than mogas. Starting can be a problem in cold weather.
BTW, "LL" stands for low lead by *aviation* standards. It actually has quite a lot of lead by mogas standards, compared to when mogas had lead. Lead fouling is a distinct possibility! |
Aviation gas doesn't give off the same BTUs as automotive gas so mileage will decrease with its use. I was told this by a guy who has forgotten more than I will ever know about motors....he's building a 10800RPM Pro Stock motor for a guy in Australia right now and is waiting for $30/gal fuel to show up and the humidity of our recent rains to disperse before doing final dyno sessions.
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I'm Cheap! I'll build that Syncro Westy myself and save money but, my labor is "FREE" especially if I ever go to sell it! One thing is I will know the quality of the parts and labor that went into the build and rest better when I'm actually driving said Westy down the road! |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50348
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| zeohsix wrote: |
| Aviation gas doesn't give off the same BTUs as automotive gas so mileage will decrease with its use. I was told this by a guy who has forgotten more than I will ever know about motors....he's building a 10800RPM Pro Stock motor for a guy in Australia right now and is waiting for $30/gal fuel to show up and the humidity of our recent rains to disperse before doing final dyno sessions. |
I always heard that hi test, premium, ethyl, or whatever you want to call it didn't have as many BTU's as regular. Don't think the difference was very great though. The advantage of high octane fuel is that it will allow you to run higher compression and/or a bit more advance thus adding to the efficiency of the engine. |
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GeorgeL
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2006
Posts: 7346
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| zeohsix wrote: |
| GeorgeL wrote: |
| Fiatdude wrote: |
| There is e free gas at every small airport that sales AvGas - 100LL - even has a small amount of lead to lubricate your valves like the good old days -- about a buck more a gallon |
100LL has different volatility than mogas. Starting can be a problem in cold weather.
BTW, "LL" stands for low lead by *aviation* standards. It actually has quite a lot of lead by mogas standards, compared to when mogas had lead. Lead fouling is a distinct possibility! |
Aviation gas doesn't give off the same BTUs as automotive gas so mileage will decrease with its use. I was told this by a guy who has forgotten more than I will ever know about motors.... |
Heats of combustion:
Uncontaminated Auto gas: 44.1MJ/kg,
E10 auto gas: 42.4MJ/kg,
100LL avgas: 43.5MJ/kg,
So, 100LL is about 1.3% lower in fuel value than pure auto gas (if you can find it) and about 2.5% higher than the E10 stuff currently in most pumps.
It's not so much the fuel values that will be noticably different, but the starting and drivability issues. |
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IdahoDoug
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10250
Location: N. Idaho
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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My 1990 Quattro seems to like the E0 gas. It requires premium, and when I use the E0 it starts and idles better and fuel economy is a couple MPGs better - from 22mpg up to 24. Unscientific, but I made a point of tracking the economy when I first got it and each E0 tank was higher and each E15 tank was lower. When I worked for GM in Detroit, we specifically used Chevron gasoline when we did our self-certifications on EPA emissions and also our MPG ratings. I still seek it out when on trips.
DougM
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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