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0to60in6min
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:42 am    Post subject: about winches... Reply with quote

hi all,

last winter I failed to help our neighbor who get stuck and during our recent trips I failed to help some fellow traveller too... because I don't have a winch...

so before I go get one I'd like to have some advices from all of you...

1.12V electric winch or manual winch (medium size)?
2. which brand is better but still affordable.
3. all the winches I've seen are installed in the FRONT and why not in the REAR? - if I get one I am considering to install it on a mounting plate and slide it in the square hole of my trail hitch.

thanks in advance for any educational advices you may have.

dan
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vwwestyman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:54 am    Post subject: Re: about winches... Reply with quote

I'd thought multiple times that one that could be mounted to a hitch would be ideal, in that it could be used on multiple vehicles, and (if you got one) front or back of the vehicle.

Then I remembered that they typically need a big, beefy electrical connection so I don't know how it'd be hooked up such that it could get the required power.
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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:58 am    Post subject: Re: about winches... Reply with quote

your trailer hitch WILL NOT BE RATED TO HANDLE THE LOADS THAT AN EXTRACTION WINCH WILL PLACE ON IT.
that is why you don't see them in the rear (much if at all) sorry to tell you, you're not the most clever person you know on this topic.. so much to learn here.

it wasn't YOUR fault that in both instances you didn't have the means to assist those OTHERS who were in a difficult situation.

Yes you can add a winch, to the front or the rear. but to do so with adequate reinforcement is alot of work and $$.. it's easier on the front.

me I own a 8k Ramsey winch, and I own a 5ton ARB magnum TIRFOR hand winch. I USE my 3/4ton griphoist in the yard/car trailer the most..

no batteries needed.. and not there when I'm not expecting to need it.. can also be used on other's vehicles or on loan to a friend.

iirc you need a winch rated 2xs the vehicle weight to get a dead vehicle from a mired situation.. if you are lucky all your extractions will be easy rollers. but you can not count on that.. and improperly winching can/will hurt/maim/kill someone.
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newerwesty1987
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:06 am    Post subject: Re: about winches... Reply with quote

I've done many winch installs over many years and have extensive experience using them for 20 years. For brands, you want Warn, Ramsey, Comeup or Superwinch. Don't get the really cheap ones. They are all Chinese and most are made by the same company with different stickers on them. Some try to sound American but are not (Smittybilt is NOT US made, for example)

The Warn M8000 is one of the best for the money, period. If you will rarely ever use it, the cheap VR Warns might be ok but they are not for serious use.

The idea of a moveable mount seems nice but in the real world use it's a huge mistake. The weight, mounting strength, power needs and so on are all major issues. Often a 4x4 will be in a position that won't even allow you to hook up a mounted winch. Try carrying 100lbs up a muddy hill or in snow, or lift that mount at an odd angle. Your approach and departure angles are already very poor in a Syncro and will be ridiculous with a hitch mounted winch. Also how would you carry it? It would have to be bolted down in the van since it would kill someone instantly in an accident. You will break your back one day and regret a hitch mounted winch, guaranteed.

Rear mounts are also a bad idea in general. There is a reason any experienced 4x4'er has a front mounted, permanent winch.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:09 am    Post subject: Re: about winches... Reply with quote

Use an "anderson type connector" and plumb some big battery power to the front or back.
Or just get some LONG cables.
Long jumpers (from the door to the front, or door to the back) are a good idea for a vanagon anyway.
Then incorporate these Anderson connectors into your jumper cables.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Mr.Brighton LED 175Amp Anderson Compatible 2 Pole Power Connector Plug Grey w/Terminals for #1/0 AWG Wire 2 housing+4 Terminal pins]

This unit is HUGE.
Maybe you can get by with the 50A size if your winch wires are 4ga.

I have read there is a concern using knock-offs (that cost much less). If another connector looks similar, but does not specify "Anderson Compatible" then it probably does NOT fit.
I don't know this for a fact.
Maybe theres a simple mod (cut off a bump etc) to make them compatible.
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Syncro Jael
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:37 am    Post subject: Re: about winches... Reply with quote

It is always suggested to use extreme caution when winching or snatching vehicles.

This has been some interesting reading. Most winches are bumper mounted on Jeeps. This means the bumper and mounting points to the frame are engineered for these loads or at least I have not seen any failures.

Why not the same with our Vans? The rear bumper needs to be strong enough to handle this load as do the mounting points. There is some extreme loading going on here.

The front also needs to have multiple loading points. But I have seen the small metal loop on the front of a Syncro handle some pretty extreme loading.

I have had my Warn Zeon 10-S mounted on a cradle. Used it on the front and rear numerous times extracting myself and other vehicles. No issues.

My front end receiver has been gusseted to the frame. The rear is a Van Cafe big tube bumper that is bolted to the frame. I also carry a receiver shackle bracket designed for winch use. I never snatch with the van, just use a winch for other vehicle recovery.

I have seen the RMW bumper get pulled on sliding a heavy Syncro back onto the road with the shackle mounting points. No issues.

What are you expecting to be involved in? In the grand scheme of heavy trucks buried to their axles in mud and a overland vehicle with a wheel or two stuck are two completely different recoveries. If all you are going to be involved in is a gentle tug to get you back on some traction, or pull you back onto the road, the hitch will be fine.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If you plan on this, then make sure you have strength! But notice their attachment points.


Link

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Steve M.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:46 pm    Post subject: Re: about winches... Reply with quote

Please do your winching safety training. I've seen one person killed in a beach recovery by the so-called local expert knowing he was right.
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drj434343
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:00 pm    Post subject: Re: about winches... Reply with quote

I've looked at GoWesty's hitch mounted solution a few times:

https://www.gowesty.com/product/bumper-body-/18323/portable-winch-mount?v=

They claim it's designed for their front and rear hitches that go with their steel bumpers. The front hitch does have two 1/2" bolts that go through the frame, but I wouldn't have ever dreamed I could hang 1X or 2X the van weight from it.

Similarly the rear hitch in their setup bolts to the frame rails, but at a significant distance from the hitch point. Again, I wouldn't ever think I could pull 1X or 2X the van weight from that point without bending or breaking things.

It would be interesting to know if people actually use this, or if anyone has seen a failure or worse...
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Syncro Jael
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:35 pm    Post subject: Re: about winches... Reply with quote

drj434343 wrote:
I've looked at GoWesty's hitch mounted solution a few times:

https://www.gowesty.com/product/bumper-body-/18323/portable-winch-mount?v=

They claim it's designed for their front and rear hitches that go with their steel bumpers. The front hitch does have two 1/2" bolts that go through the frame, but I wouldn't have ever dreamed I could hang 1X or 2X the van weight from it.

Similarly the rear hitch in their setup bolts to the frame rails, but at a significant distance from the hitch point. Again, I wouldn't ever think I could pull 1X or 2X the van weight from that point without bending or breaking things.

It would be interesting to know if people actually use this, or if anyone has seen a failure or worse...


You would be surprised at the strength of steel. With a couple 1/2" bolts you can attain a tremendous load and yield strength. They can easily lift a loaded Syncro at 6000lbs. Read the differences: Tensile Strength: The maximum load in tension (pulling apart) which a material can withstand before breaking or fracturing. I use Grade 8 for bumper attachments.

The shear strength of carbon steel is very impressive also.

https://www.unipunch.com/support/charts/material-specifications/

Yield Strength: The maximum load at which a material exhibits a specific permanent deformation

Proof Load: An axial tensile load which the product must withstand without evidence of any permanent set.

https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/materials-and-grades/bolt-grade-chart.aspx
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drj434343
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: about winches... Reply with quote

The thing that I worried about on the front hitch specifically is that the hitch plate sits at least 2" above the frame through hole that the 1/2 bolt goes through. This is due to the height of the steel bumper; there's a gap between the bumper and frame.

That really puts that bolt in a bending load more than shear. I suspect that a pulling force directly forward on that front hitch would eventually bend the hitch forward and down as the bolts bent. That's the same deflection direction I see when I load the hitch with weight, though so far I haven't seen any plastic deformation in the bolts.
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B.O.B.Wanders
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:12 pm    Post subject: Re: about winches... Reply with quote

After learning a little bit about winches and the electrical and mounting requirements, I decided for my purposes a 4 ton come-a-long would make a lot more sense along with a snatch block and a heavy duty tow strap (not a snatch strap). It goes up top with the spare gas can when we head out to the woods. I did add a couple of recovery points in the front bolted directly to the frame to supplement the little loop thing, but I'm not looking to do any extreme recovery.

This summer, my wife made me buy an old Jeep CJ-7 which came with a Warn M8000 winch which is probably as old as the Jeep (1986). It is beefy as all hell and I would not even think of trying to rig a mount for it on the van - front or back. The wiring requirements alone are far more than I would want to mess with. If you're building an extreme terrain Syncro it might be worth the effort, but not for me.

I'm no expert, but I have tried to learn as much as I can to self-recover safely. However, even experienced folks can do dumb things. In a former life I once watched a recovery vehicle crew pull a tree down on top of itself in the process of pulling a 2 1/2 ton truck out of a ditch. I'd rather not discuss how the Deuce got into the ditch in the first place.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:26 pm    Post subject: Re: about winches... Reply with quote

We just posted this a couple days ago. There is a section about winching.

https://expeditionportal.com/training-our-limits/

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0to60in6min
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:19 pm    Post subject: Re: about winches... Reply with quote

thanks all for your replies...

I have Burley tow hitch and the purpose of the winch will be light ie. pulling someone out of a grass patch or sand or mud ... no heavy recovery.


Last edited by 0to60in6min on Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:35 am    Post subject: Re: about winches... Reply with quote

If it's only light recovery then surely you could just carry some long straps and tow them out, or am I missing something?

Either that or maybe carry something like a Tirfor winch, which you can anchor to either the front or back of your van, or which you can even anchor to a post or tree?

In terms of attachment points, at the front of our van we have had an extra OEM towing eye welded on and carry a 'bridle' strap which spreads the load and so gives us one decent towing point. At the rear we have a NATO pintle hitch fitted on an old Bundeswehr towbar that we acquired, again giving us one decent towing point.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:25 am    Post subject: Re: about winches... Reply with quote

Winching and retrieval is not for amateurs. I’m an amateur.

The tension in the lines even in a small car retrieval can kill you.
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:28 am    Post subject: Re: about winches... Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
The tension in the lines even in a small car retrieval can kill you.

Especially if you were in the middle - like some medieval torture device.

In general, you don't need to worry about winching, 'cuz in general you ain't stuck.
Consequently you don't put your mind to it.

When you get stuck, an electric device that pulls real hard, becomes real handy and you figure it out.

Next time you see an ACTUAL winch injury post, please link it.
It seems to be one of those hot-button scare subjects that propagates well on the internet because it's "plausible"....but does it "happen"?
Sure it does, the 4wd fellas out drinking, shooting guns, floggin' it, busting u-joints, of course it happens.
But I don't think you'll see it in the Vanagon world.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I bought this device (Maasdam Powr Pull $117, 1500lbs, 100ft rope) to carry in the van.
I wanted to try it because it crawls along the entire 100 ft rope, it doesn't 'wrap' around a spool like a come-a-long.
It's kinda "big".
It pulls real hard.
The effort to use it is rather "extreme" compared to an electric winch.
You have to try the two and actually compare them.
All depends how hard, and how far, and I wouldn't want hard or far with a hand winch.
Then you see why someone goes to the trouble to bolt on a winch, wire it up and all,,,,
All 'cuz they needed it one time in seven years (and never again Wink )
But it can make the difference of driving out or walking out.

Here's another thread with stories and "opinions" about Winching.... Recovery kit, magnum hand winch
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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: about winches... Reply with quote

just be Leary of the potential energy
and don't winch through the windshield M'kay

Link


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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:35 am    Post subject: Re: about winches... Reply with quote

I had a little trailer ball mounted winch years ago, I think it was rated at something like 5000# at 10 volts. With it being able to swivel on the ball the forces on the winch were greatly lessened over having the cable fighting its way over the fairlead rollers of a fixed winch. I multiple times was able to pull people out when the macho guys with much bigger winches could not get the job done.

I had a trailer ball mounted on each end of the front bumper and one centered in the rear. This let me do a straight pull at what would have been some rather extreme angles for a typical winch.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:39 am    Post subject: Re: about winches... Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
I had a little trailer ball mounted winch.....I had a trailer ball mounted on each end of the front bumper and one centered in the rear. This let me do a straight pull at what would have been some rather extreme angles for a typical winch.


That's a very cool, simple solution.
Wonder why it's not "more popular"?
Maybe because trailer balls are rated for "x,xxx lbs trailer weight" not rated for "x,xxx lbs cable tension"?
And the similarity of the numbers might cause people to use "trailer weight ratings" as "winch tension ratings"?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: about winches... Reply with quote

danfromsyr wrote:
just be Leary of the potential energy


Wow dan that's a good video.

The longer the cable or strap, the more energy is stored in it.
Always think about it like a rubber band.

Short cable is much safer.
As is low tension, like a hand winch.

Agreed there are lots of "safety details".
Those aussies really do it up.
Vanagon fellers aren't going to be doing this kind of thing.
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