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joetiger 
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2005
Posts: 5078
Location: denver
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 Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:54 am Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation |
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| felixbobcat wrote: |
I have the same set up in my 85 westy. I installed a three speed fan, Vanagon AC Relays, resistor and fan harness.
The blue wire coming off your temperature control knob turns on the compressor when the system is turned on so you connect one black green from the trinary switch to that wire the other Black green on the trinary to the wire from your compressor.
There is a small gauge red/blue wire on the third stage relay on the vanagon factory AC wiring circuit. That is the red/blue wire SM shows in its wiring diagram NOT the large gauge red/blue coming off the the radiator fan. That small gauge wire connects to the one of the blue wires from the high pressure side of the trinary switch, the other blue wire on trinary switch is connected to a constant power source. I connected that wire to my auxiliary battery. |
After more research, I dove in and I have everything connected the same way EXCEPT the 2nd blue wire from the trinary. That needs to go to constant 12v and not ground. Got it. I'll probably run it direct to the starter battery.
| felixbobcat wrote: |
I added a relay to my system so that when the compressor is turned on the low speed circuit on the radiator fan is engaged. The Radiator fan has to turn on whenever the AC is turned on, as you may know. |
If you don't my my asking, where and how did you wire in this additional relay? I've got a Bosch 40/30 left over from another project that might fit the bill.
Thanks for responding!
_________________
Joe T.
'86 NAHT Vanagon GL Syncro/ supercharged ABA 2.0 "Pigpen"
'04 GTI 1.8T
'04 Golf R32
"get metaphysical with it. if it's simply a means to get to and from places, it will let you down. if it becomes your zen, it can't fail you." -dabaron
"Still, it's good to be afield."--VWagabond
Available Now! Vanagon to Louisiana--A Two-Lane Reckoning Through Past and Present
www.josephtrussell.com |
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felixbobcat
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Joined: December 13, 2017
Posts: 173
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation |
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I added the relay coming off the blue wire from the thermostat. Instead going directly to the trinary switch I ran it into a relay and then split the output, pin 87, off the relay to the trinary high pressure switch and the Radiator fan. That way it turns on the trinay and also turns on the first speed of the radiator fan.
I did make my own relay plug so I could run two wires out of pin 87
Last edited by felixbobcat on Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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felixbobcat
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Joined: December 13, 2017
Posts: 173
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation |
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| felixbobcat wrote: |
| joetiger wrote: |
I guess it's a good time to throw my questions out; pre-apologies because I know it's been covered before but there are so many variations, I can't get it straight. Ken doesn't go into any details in his videos and unfortunately he's out of touch for a few days.
This is a Vintage Air Gen II Super in my '86 Syncro with 3-speed fan (tested and working correctly.) The van previously had AC but most of that stuff has been removed. I ran a wire directly from the compressor + to the front of the van awaiting connection.
Standard Vintage Air trinary switch with two blue wires, two black/green. There is also the blue wire from the dash knob.
My thought is blue from dash knob goes to one black/green and the other black/green goes to the compressor, with an additional inline relay per
Howesight's post on Page 9.
But then I'm hung up on the two blue wires. Does one jump to the medium fan relay and the other to keyed power? Or do I jump it directly to the fan switch connection on the front of the radiator? Or something entirely different?
I'm trying to keep this as simple as possible and appreciate any assistance! |
I have the same set up in my 85 westy. I installed a three speed fan, Vanagon AC Relays, resistor and fan harness.
The blue wire coming off your temperature control knob turns on the compressor when the system is turned on so you connect one black green from the trinary switch to that wire the other Black green on the trinary to the wire from your compressor.
There is a small gauge red/blue wire on the third stage relay on the vanagon factory AC wiring circuit. That is the red/blue wire SM shows in its wiring diagram NOT the large gauge red/blue coming off the the radiator fan. That small gauge wire connects to the one of the blue wires from the high pressure side of the trinary switch, the other blue wire on trinary switch is connected to a constant power source. I connected that wire to my auxiliary battery.
I added a relay to my system so that when the compressor is turned on the low speed circuit on the radiator fan is engaged. The Radiator fan has to turn on whenever the AC is turned on, as you may know.
This reminds me that I need to write down my diagram for future reference! |
I'm going to edit this since I got it partially wrong. the Small red/blue wire comes off the SECOND speed radiator fan relay. That is the wire you connect to one of the blue wires from the Trinary switch. This works as a ground. The other blue wire is connected to a power source. I connected that blue wire on mine to the new relay I built that also powers the 1st speed on the radiator fan. So when I turn on the AC the Radiator Fan and High Pressure Trinary are powered.
Last edited by felixbobcat on Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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rmcd
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Joined: October 29, 2010
Posts: 1349
Location: PNW - its a dry rain.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation |
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I’ve been thinking about Mao’s suggestion to wire in a switch to turn off the AC compressor and I’m beginning to think this might address an issue I’ve been experiencing.
My defrost is not super warm when compared to the other vents. I’ve failed to Systematically measure the temp differences as I think I’m applying my HF infrared thermometer Incorrectly for this application. But, I know it is much cooler.
Mao’s comment about the AC fighting with the heat kind of rings here.
Anyone know if the ac compressor “cools” the air when the temp is turned up to hot while in defrost mode?
Anyone suffering from defrost dysfunction?
Thanks
_________________
VW LT40 build. Like a Vanagon but 30% larger in every direction and 40% slower even in metric.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=749359&highlight= |
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kourt
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Joined: August 13, 2013
Posts: 1948
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:23 am Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation |
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The defrost in the SC/Vintage Air system is an AC based system where the AC compressor is always (and automatically) engaged when defrost is selected.
All modern automobile defrost systems work this way. Hot air holds more moisture than cold air, so the idea is to use the air conditioner to remove moisture from the air and also reduce the temperature gradient between air outside of the windshield and inside the windshield. This results in the fastest and most long lasting defrosting function.
Defrosting should not use warm air. If it does, your defroster is not functioning correctly.
In the SC/Vintage Air system, selecting full defrost puts cold, air conditioned air through the defrost vents, and onto the inside of the windshield. Selecting a mix between floor and defrost puts air conditioned air through the defrost vents and whatever temperature you select on the temp dial through the floor vents, with the idea being that you can defrost the windows with cold air and heat your feet with warm air at the same time (known as "bi-level" in most American cars). I've done this many times with my SC system, and it is sophisticated enough to deliver two different temperatures of air to two different vent systems in the same car.
I was in Montana about a month ago and woke up to a 30 degree day in the mountains. I had to start driving right away, after a long night in the van (condensation on the windows). The SC system did its job: I turned on Defrost and set the vent dial to halfway between Defrost and Floor, and set the temp to full hot. Shortly I was getting my feet heated with hot air and my windshield was clearing with cold air coming from the defrost vents. I could hear the AC compressor clicking. Functioning as designed.
The Vintage Air Gen IV instructions cover this briefly on page 15.
kourt |
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joetiger
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Joined: January 27, 2005
Posts: 5078
Location: denver
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| Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:58 am Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation |
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With major thanks to felixbobcat, I think I might have it figured out.
--Blue from control panel/thermostat switch to black/green #1 on trinary
--compressor + to black/green #2
--battery to Blue #1 on trinary
--#87 on relay to Blue #2 on trinary
Bosch relay:
--battery to #30
--ground to #85
--additional added wire from control panel to #86 trigger
--Blue #2 from trinary to #87
--jumper from smaller blue/red on rad thermo switch also to #87
I haven't powered anything up yet, but just want to make sure this looks correct.
Thanks
_________________
Joe T.
'86 NAHT Vanagon GL Syncro/ supercharged ABA 2.0 "Pigpen"
'04 GTI 1.8T
'04 Golf R32
"get metaphysical with it. if it's simply a means to get to and from places, it will let you down. if it becomes your zen, it can't fail you." -dabaron
"Still, it's good to be afield."--VWagabond
Available Now! Vanagon to Louisiana--A Two-Lane Reckoning Through Past and Present
www.josephtrussell.com |
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kourt
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Joined: August 13, 2013
Posts: 1948
Location: Austin, TX
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joetiger
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2005
Posts: 5078
Location: denver
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| Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation |
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I got it all wired up and working correctly. Thanks again, felixbobcat. On to the next steps.
_________________
Joe T.
'86 NAHT Vanagon GL Syncro/ supercharged ABA 2.0 "Pigpen"
'04 GTI 1.8T
'04 Golf R32
"get metaphysical with it. if it's simply a means to get to and from places, it will let you down. if it becomes your zen, it can't fail you." -dabaron
"Still, it's good to be afield."--VWagabond
Available Now! Vanagon to Louisiana--A Two-Lane Reckoning Through Past and Present
www.josephtrussell.com |
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rmcd
Samba Member
Joined: October 29, 2010
Posts: 1349
Location: PNW - its a dry rain.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation |
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Much thanks Kourt. Learned something new. I will try the bilevel setting to see if I get better defrosting.
_________________
VW LT40 build. Like a Vanagon but 30% larger in every direction and 40% slower even in metric.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=749359&highlight= |
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joetiger
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Joined: January 27, 2005
Posts: 5078
Location: denver
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation |
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Up and running, right at 40 degrees at the vents.
It wouldn't hold vacuum at first; the compressor fitting and hoses were the culprit. It was easy to track down because it was very faintly hissing. My mistake.
I know these aren't everybody's cup of tea, but without fresh air vents they make sense. You can crack the windows without creating too much turbulence.
These are from CIP1.com and are more slender and fit better than the ones I had on my last van.
28 oz. of R134a. I took it out for an extended drive in 97 degree heat yesterday afternoon and I love it. The two little fans I put on the ceiling move some air to the back, but I agree with others who've said this setup will keep the front passengers happy but might be lacking for the rear. More experience with the system is needed, though.
Thanks again felixbobcat for your help, and all of you who have contributed to these threads.
_________________
Joe T.
'86 NAHT Vanagon GL Syncro/ supercharged ABA 2.0 "Pigpen"
'04 GTI 1.8T
'04 Golf R32
"get metaphysical with it. if it's simply a means to get to and from places, it will let you down. if it becomes your zen, it can't fail you." -dabaron
"Still, it's good to be afield."--VWagabond
Available Now! Vanagon to Louisiana--A Two-Lane Reckoning Through Past and Present
www.josephtrussell.com |
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felixbobcat
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Joined: December 13, 2017
Posts: 173
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:14 am Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation |
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Well done! Glad to have helped.
I'm very happy with my Gen II as well. AC is a necessity here in So Cal! |
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ALIKA T3
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Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 6360
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation |
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Hi Joe!
Good job on the AC!
I love the stripes btw 
How did you fit the evaporator in the dash with keeping the stereo in the stock location? I thought I was the only one who did it, extensive work...
_________________
Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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joetiger
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2005
Posts: 5078
Location: denver
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:02 am Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation |
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| ALIKA T3 wrote: |
Hi Joe!
Good job on the AC!
I love the stripes btw
How did you fit the evaporator in the dash with keeping the stereo in the stock location? I thought I was the only one who did it, extensive work... |
Thanks! I kinda went crazy with the stripes. Once I started, I couldn't stop. 
The Gen II evaporator is pretty narrow. I fit snugly forward in the dash, and the ducts coming off the top fit around the stereo opening. I'm also using a non-CD stereo which only has 3 7/8" depth.
_________________
Joe T.
'86 NAHT Vanagon GL Syncro/ supercharged ABA 2.0 "Pigpen"
'04 GTI 1.8T
'04 Golf R32
"get metaphysical with it. if it's simply a means to get to and from places, it will let you down. if it becomes your zen, it can't fail you." -dabaron
"Still, it's good to be afield."--VWagabond
Available Now! Vanagon to Louisiana--A Two-Lane Reckoning Through Past and Present
www.josephtrussell.com |
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joetiger
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2005
Posts: 5078
Location: denver
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation |
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Further AC tuning...
It blows nice and cold while putt-putting around town and at idle, but on the highway it blows warm. Get off the highway and stop at a light? Gets ice cold again.
Internet research seems to bring up the opposite case (cold at speed and warm at idle) frequently, but I've only found a bit information about my situation.
From what can gather, I might have under-charged the system. Does this make sense?
Also, I haven't sealed the edges of the radiator and condenser yet, although it seems like that should result in the opposite symptoms.
_________________
Joe T.
'86 NAHT Vanagon GL Syncro/ supercharged ABA 2.0 "Pigpen"
'04 GTI 1.8T
'04 Golf R32
"get metaphysical with it. if it's simply a means to get to and from places, it will let you down. if it becomes your zen, it can't fail you." -dabaron
"Still, it's good to be afield."--VWagabond
Available Now! Vanagon to Louisiana--A Two-Lane Reckoning Through Past and Present
www.josephtrussell.com |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17155
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation |
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You really need to have your gauges on it. Low side pressure relates to evap core temp. High side will give you an indication as to whether it’s over charged or under charged. What compressor are you using? Vintage air has a note that low side is set to a lower pressure than expected through their expansion valve.
Edit: you also need to verify the trinary switch is not cutting the compressor off from over pressure. That would indicate an overcharge.
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ALIKA T3
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Abscate
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Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:44 am Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation |
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| joetiger wrote: |
Further AC tuning...
It blows nice and cold while putt-putting around town and at idle, but on the highway it blows warm. Get off the highway and stop at a light? Gets ice cold again.
Internet research seems to bring up the opposite case (cold at speed and warm at idle) frequently, but I've only found a bit information about my situation.
From what can gather, I might have under-charged the system. Does this make sense?
Also, I haven't sealed the edges of the radiator and condenser yet, although it seems like that should result in the opposite symptoms. |
Other way. Over pressure getting cut off at revs.
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joetiger
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Joined: January 27, 2005
Posts: 5078
Location: denver
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation |
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Thanks for the guidance. I'll re-borrow the gauges and see what I've got.
_________________
Joe T.
'86 NAHT Vanagon GL Syncro/ supercharged ABA 2.0 "Pigpen"
'04 GTI 1.8T
'04 Golf R32
"get metaphysical with it. if it's simply a means to get to and from places, it will let you down. if it becomes your zen, it can't fail you." -dabaron
"Still, it's good to be afield."--VWagabond
Available Now! Vanagon to Louisiana--A Two-Lane Reckoning Through Past and Present
www.josephtrussell.com |
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17155
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:53 am Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation |
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A handy addition would be an indicator light that is lit when the compressor is engaged. It would need to be between the trinary switch and the compressor coil. I can tell when my compressor cycles by the battery voltage on my scan gauge. Member Andy Bees has done this I recall.
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joetiger
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Location: denver
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:24 am Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation |
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I released some of the pressure on the high side and the system now works like a charm. Thanks again for the guidance.
To really test it, on Monday I drove out to Pawnee Buttes (way WAY out in the middle of nowhere northeastern Colorado) where it was 103 degrees outside. The AC performed admirably; its definitely strong enough to keep the front seats comfy.
Driving in heat with the windows up makes the whole project worthwhile.
_________________
Joe T.
'86 NAHT Vanagon GL Syncro/ supercharged ABA 2.0 "Pigpen"
'04 GTI 1.8T
'04 Golf R32
"get metaphysical with it. if it's simply a means to get to and from places, it will let you down. if it becomes your zen, it can't fail you." -dabaron
"Still, it's good to be afield."--VWagabond
Available Now! Vanagon to Louisiana--A Two-Lane Reckoning Through Past and Present
www.josephtrussell.com |
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