Top End Rebuild here I come

Island Bwoy 420 · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:00 pm Post subject: Top End Rebuild here I come

Damn, the worst christmas news ever. I was having trouble with the bus and took it to a friends shop, only to find out I have 50% leakage in 1#, 30% in 2#, 17 in 3#, and 25% in the 4th. So jugs and valves need to be redone. Would I be crazy to try to do this myself? I am being quote a "high" quote of around 900 dollars. Give or take what he finds when he drops the motor. What else should I do while I've got the motor on the stand? I was thinking an oil sump and cooler and whatever else you guys suggest. I did a search on top end and looks like its a major job for a new mechanic like myself. Oh well its gotta be done. Thanks guys

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BUS UNDER CONSTRUCTION
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4-2-0 Theres no time to be taking your time so spark it up!

keifernet · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:41 pm Post subject:

You diddn't state what year/ engine.... upright 1600 or later model type 2/4 engine...

Island Bwoy 420 · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:49 pm Post subject:

Oops, I meant a 78' Transporter with a 2.0l in it.
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4-2-0 Theres no time to be taking your time so spark it up!

keifernet · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:08 pm Post subject:

Yeah, judging by the quote you posted I figured it had to be the later engine but wanted to clarify that.

There was at least a few threads on this you may be able to find.

actually here are some, this guy bajorek asked a bunch of questions and there may be some good info in going through some of his old threads... type in rebuild engine and his login " bajorek" for the author

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?mode=results

you may find some others in a search or just wait for Ratwell, amskeptic and the others who are well versed in these beasts to share the wealth.

ratwell · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Top End Rebuild here I come

Island Bwoy 420 · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:29 pm Post subject:

Nope that what he told me on the phone. He charges 60 an hour for labor so with parts included it that a good deal? What is going rate for a job like this at 60$/hr?

Thanks for the quick responses
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4-2-0 Theres no time to be taking your time so spark it up!

Bottomend · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:35 pm Post subject:

Rebuilding the top end is not out of your reach. But you should ask yourself if it's worth it. It might not be the wisest money spent if the engine is old. the last thing you want is to pull it all apart and then in 6 months from now have to take it out again to go over the bottomend.

This next comment isn't ment to condem anyone but... are you SURE this shop has your best intrest's at stake? Are they totally trustwrothy? Do you know other people who've had work done there? The first sign to me would be if they didn't mention the age/use/abuse level of the engine in it's current state. Again leading back to my origenial comment about possibly have to change other stuff 6 months down the road. It would almost be TOO convienent for them to recommend a top end only reuild and then have you come back to do a full bottom end rebuild as well.... it wouldn't be the first time someone has done this. I'm new to VW's and I've already heard lots of horror stories. I've had my share of them too!

There are lots of good resources availible to you if you choose to do your own work. I rebuilt my own engine after owning my bus for 6 months.( I've had it exactly one year and I've got 2500 miles on my engine... purring like a kitten!) I had NEVER done anything even remotely close to a project like this. These forums are a real help for people like you and me.

keifernet · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:42 pm Post subject:

I was going to suggest that you would at least want to put new pistons and cylinders ( about 350 for 2.0liter?) and unless you get a really good place like Headflow masters to rebuild you heads alot of people go with new heads at about 300 each.... so that is 900+ right there.

the type2/4 is not a cheap engine to rebuild... but you get what you pay for. if you (or the builder) cut corners you can end up eating some time/ money or live with the fact that it may not last long (or both)

for instance the condition of the cam lobes and lifters is always a big ??? and you need to split the case to be sure of the cam. and then what about the wrist pin bushings in the rods and the main and rod bearings???? see???

rebuilding the top end on a bottom end that is worn or near worn out is always the question...at least the one I always ask...

Island Bwoy 420 · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:44 pm Post subject:

The dude there, Tim is a nice guy but I can def. see what you are saying. I asked him if is worth it to do a complete rebuild and I am considering it. He said around 2k for a total rebuild and under a grand to do the top end. After having disturbing work done by the only other local aircooled shop I brought it to Tim. He has worked on a friends bus and she was happy with it. I jumped to have it worked on because I need a car and both shops are going from 60 to 70 and hour after the first of the year. So I brought it in to get all that out of the way. I really am in the air about the bottomend. I know that it would probably out of my reach to do a top end yet because of tools, time, and other variables. I was considering it but after thinking about it I am shifting my question to how much should it cost to have done. How many hours of labor should it take? What should I ask the mechanic, what else should I know before I layout this kind of money? Also he said that the engine has probably seen 200k but he didnt say much more than that. Thanks guys
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4-2-0 Theres no time to be taking your time so spark it up!

Island Bwoy 420 · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:48 pm Post subject:

K, you make a really good point. I am leaning more towards a full blown rebuild but I want a price in writing so it doesnt skyrocket after he starts. Would I be better to buy another aircooled 2.0 and swap? Vanagon up to 83 had the air cooled 2.0 right? is that a possible switch? I have alot of things to weight out dont I? I am just trying to find out as much as possible so that I can make an informed position before I drop serious cash. Anyone have a decent 2.0 for sale?!
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4-2-0 Theres no time to be taking your time so spark it up!

keifernet · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:56 pm Post subject:

If he is charging you 60 an hour and is quoting only 900 total... how many hours is he estimating 6? 10?

even a top end is not just a few hours job... or what kind of parts are you getting? just hone and re ring the cyls???

who is doing the valve job or rebuilding the heads?... new guides? all new valves or just exhaust?

hell a gasket set, oil and a filter, tune up parts is a hundred bucks...

you have some investigating/ chioces to make... IMO

this is always a tough thing for late model bus engines are not cheap ( as cheap as 1600's)

Island Bwoy 420 · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:03 pm Post subject:

He doesnt sub any work out he said. He told me just jugs and rings was what he would do. I am really going to start looking at a different engine or sending off my core. The more post you guys post the more I wonder about all this. I dont know what I would do without the samba!? I will take all the info you guys provided me with and go speak to him and get to the bottom line. I really appriciate everything. Thanks again

KYLE
_________________
4-2-0 Theres no time to be taking your time so spark it up!

keifernet · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:06 pm Post subject:

well, I can only speculate from this side of the keyboard not being there and all but if all your getting is teardown and just rings reassembly for 900 bucks..... I'd say ...err.... no thanks, I'm investigating other options. Just my opinion...

I mean no valve/head work? that just sounds shady to me, let's see what the others think.

ratwell · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:37 pm Post subject:

Island Bwoy 420 · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:46 pm Post subject:

Island Bwoy 420 · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:47 pm Post subject:

ooh does it mean redo and rebuild? lol
I would like to find someone to do it for 1600! Let me in on your secret. I was thinking about asking keifernet to rebuild it for me lol! Hey Ratwell wanna make some money?
_________________
4-2-0 Theres no time to be taking your time so spark it up!

ratwell · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:54 pm Post subject:

Oops, I meant $1900. R&R: Remove old engine, replace with new AVP engine obtained from Bus Depot. Send your core back.

keifernet · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:01 pm Post subject:

Does your engine still run at all? how much oil does it use? if the cyls are that shot I'd think it would have alot of blowby and not run worth shit. how was the leakdown test performed???

Randy in Maine · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:04 pm Post subject:

Bummer there Island Bwoy. Sad

I would agree with Ratwells and Keifer's call on this. It all depends on your finances, with what you can do.

I would imagine you are looking at a longblock (ether a dfferent one or yours rebuilt) so that you can use the webers you have on there + maintain the hydaulic lifters. Aligned bored would be useful for longer life (personal opinion).

http://www.busdepot.com/busdepot/view.jsp?model=57&category=15&group=8&prodgroup=1056
thebus depot sells a 78 2.0 long block for $1100 +your core. I don't know where they come from (AVP?) I would call them to make sure it doesn't come from GEX under a new label. Ron over there is a pretty straight up guy to me so far, I would talk to him.

http://www.bostonengine.com/enginepricelist.html Boston Bob gets about $2200 + your core for a long block. He is pretty well thought of.

Last time I checked, Raby quoted me about $4500 for a stock rebuild + about 3 months. I don't know what that gets you but they think highly of him also. Too rich for my blood, however.

It is your money, your bus, and your call.

Pick wisely however. Get your money's worth.

ratwell · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:08 pm Post subject:


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