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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11056
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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 Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:55 am Post subject: Re: FRONT drums, Chevy pattern?? |
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| Kevinwterry wrote: |
| I'm sure it's been posted before but I can't find an answer. WHY can't wide five link pin front drums be re drilled to a chevy 5 lug? Sorry it's an old post, but it had a relevant topic and I know how much Everett loves new topics created... |
Because of the center radius towards the snout..
The wheel center bottoms out on the curve of the radius before reaching the flat wheel mating of the drum surface..
Same problem for front and rear drums..original or aftermarket..
and.. was sort of answered a few posts up..
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Lo Cash John
Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2004
Posts: 2246
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| joescoolcustoms wrote: |
| Several years ago I bought a set of LP spindles that had been converted to disc brakes with all new parts and set up for 4 lug wheels. When wvbowtieman was building his Lithia, I measured them and came up with either 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" wider wheel track over a stock LP drum, per side. |
I think this is the design of the disc rotor/hub as compared to a drum. On a stock VW disc rotor/hub the mounting flange for the wheel is approximately 1/2" or so further outboard with relation to the bearings, when compared to the design of the drums.
An example is the front track width of a ball joint Ghia (factory disc brakes) compared to the front track width of a ball joint bug. The Ghia was something like 1" wider and the only difference is rotors vs drums.
The disc brake spindles might be slightly different (thicker) but I'm not certain. I've got stock disc and drum spindles out in the shop I could measure when I get the time.
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clonebug
Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2005
Posts: 4027
Location: NW Washington
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:06 am Post subject: Re: FRONT drums, Chevy pattern?? |
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It's mpst likely due to the webbing on the back side of the drum.
Looking at my disc brake rotors and the webbing they have I can see why.
This pic might help explain.
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My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5481
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| Lo Cash John wrote: |
I think this is the design of the disc rotor/hub as compared to a drum. On a stock VW disc rotor/hub the mounting flange for the wheel is approximately 1/2" or so further outboard with relation to the bearings, when compared to the design of the drums.
An example is the front track width of a ball joint Ghia (factory disc brakes) compared to the front track width of a ball joint bug. The Ghia was something like 1" wider and the only difference is rotors vs drums.
The disc brake spindles might be slightly different (thicker) but I'm not certain. I've got stock disc and drum spindles out in the shop I could measure when I get the time. |
That sounded like a good way to nail down the actual difference, but it didn't work. Using the 1970 owners manuals here on the Samba both the 1970 US Beetle and 1970 US Karmann Ghia I found they both have a 51.6 inch front track width, but different wheels (the Bug has 4 inch wheels, the Ghia 4-1/2 inch wheels.)
I decided to compare the US Beetle manual to the German Beetle manual because I'm pretty sure the Bugs in Germany where getting front disc brakes. I hit success with that as apparently both front disc (scheibenbremse) and front drum (trommelbremse) brakes where available in 1970. It appears that stock front disc brakes increase the track with 6mm over stock drum brakes (about 1/8 inch per side.)
Putting stock late disc brakes on king and link pin spindles (using the adapter wheel bearings and associated hardware) is a different animal. I know it increases track width quite a bit, but I don't know how much.
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didget69
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2004
Posts: 4927
Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: FRONT drums, Chevy pattern?? |
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| Kevinwterry wrote: |
| I'm sure it's been posted before but I can't find an answer. WHY can't wide five link pin front drums be re drilled to a chevy 5 lug? Sorry it's an old post, but it had a relevant topic and I know how much Everett loves new topics created... |
Lay a Chevy 5-lug rim on a wide-5 drum - the answer will be apparent.
bnc
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Lo Cash John
Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2004
Posts: 2246
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: FRONT drums, Chevy pattern?? |
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While I would love to see someone do this with late model drums on LP spindles, the reality is it's not a cost effective way to get a Chevy, Ford or Porsche bolt pattern on the front of a buggy.
By the time you drop $140-$160 for the drums (in Chevy, Porsche or whatever pattern), another $50+ on conversion bearings and work out the backing plate issues (if any), you could buy a front disc kit for not much more money. Yes I know front discs are overkill on a buggy but if you're trying to avoid adapters at all costs, you can also throw discs on the back and add a proportioning valve as needed. Now you have low maintenance brakes and the bias can be tailored to your exact needs.
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More brains than bucks...Believe it or not!!
If you actually drive your VW, you need www.AirMapp.com
My boss told me I need to work on my mutli-tasking. So now when I use the bathroom at work I surf The Samba on my iPhone. |
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cdnltded
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2015
Posts: 381
Location: Pincher Creek, Alberta
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:57 pm Post subject: Re: FRONT drums, Chevy pattern?? |
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so from what i am seeing here in this thread. you cant drill and install studs in the 64 style brake drums because if the radius on the outside of the drum.
so why could a guy not get that material removed, granted the inside will play the biggest roll in this.
but if there was enough material there to make it flat and hit the webbing on the inside would this not work?
all i want is the fronts under my fenders of my buggy, if i could find reasonably priced wide wide 5s i would just stay with the original wheels |
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joescoolcustoms
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006
Posts: 9054
Location: West By God Virginia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:04 pm Post subject: Re: FRONT drums, Chevy pattern?? |
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Two things to look at closely on the early drums.
First, the outside snout. It is made that way to give strength to the bearing position with relation the the braking drum surface. If turned down to fit a Chevy/Ford pattern, a significant amount of metal and strength have been compromised.
Second, the area that the chevy/ford lug holes would locate on the drum face are very thin and do not have a lot of twisting strength to hold a lug nut square and could rip out.
Final comment, the brakes are the most important safety device on any moving vehicle. My suggestion is to never compromise when working on them or altering them. Not only the drivers life, but other bystander's lives may depend on it.
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cdnltded
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2015
Posts: 381
Location: Pincher Creek, Alberta
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: FRONT drums, Chevy pattern?? |
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so for shits and giggles i took an extra front drum i had laying around and tried to turn down the face to accept the chevy bolt pattern.
here is the result
my thoughts on how to do the chevy bolt pattern can not be done |
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joescoolcustoms
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006
Posts: 9054
Location: West By God Virginia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: FRONT drums, Chevy pattern?? |
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This question gets asked every couple years. Thanks for the photo explanation for future reference.
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Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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