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ftp2leta
Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2004
Posts: 3271
Location: Montreal
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 Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:28 am Post subject: You think engine conversion are easy... |
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Not, I have been struggling for 4 days tying to get a 2013 (last year of the 2.5L SOHC) running right. I have to vent.
It's already an hybrid kind of 2.5L and I made more hybrid by using a different FI (year). The CANBUS converting module is not working on this engine... nothing work. It start but it's surging after a few minutes.
I'm on my 4th day trying to solve that problem.
Something is different in the new plastic intake but I can't find what.
I know, no one can help me as I'm surely the first in the world to attempt that.
Thanks for reading anyway.
Ben
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Working with rust, grease, dirt and dust is a sad truth.
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FI part for sale: http://www.benplace.com/parts_sale1.htm
My site: http://www.benplace.com/vw2.htm
Subi conversion: http://www.benplace.com/vanaru_eng.htm
Youtube http://www.youtube.com/user/ftp2leta |
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atomatom
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012
Posts: 1867
Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:38 am Post subject: |
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is it easier than the original? i guess the result is more satisfying - but at least the WBX (and predecessors) were pretty simple and didn't change much over the years.
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84 Vanagon Westy, 1.9L, California raised but defected to Canada. |
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16501
Location: Brookeville, MD
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Gauche1968
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Joined: April 13, 2006
Posts: 1518
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:47 am Post subject: |
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In some ways, its relieving to know that occasionally even the professionals get stumped for a while. It makes me feel a little less like an idiot. But, I am sure you will figure it out eventually. Bonne Chance!
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1984 Vanagon GL
1984 Vanagon Westy |
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10367
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:01 am Post subject: |
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Ben I know little to nothing of canbus so don't want to waste your time but.....
Assuming the idle control system on the FI you're using receives inputs from various accessories (loads), maybe there's an accessory (input) on the donor vehicle that is "new" to you and got overlooked and-or this input is not dealt with by the converting module? Or....
When you shut off the engine, is it possible that the engine computer is "forgetting" a parameter related to idle? (does this computer have a memory to store this kind of information so it can refer to it when engine restarted warm?)
I find my '04 Accord complex. Cant imagine a '13 engine management.
Best of luck. It's always something eh?
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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SCP_Austin
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Joined: November 04, 2009
Posts: 366
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| atomatom wrote: |
| is it easier than the original? i guess the result is more satisfying - but at least the WBX (and predecessors) were pretty simple and didn't change much over the years. |
Kind of pointless for a purist to needle the converter in this thread. I am sure VW has some hiccups with the WBXer when they started out too.
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atomatom
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012
Posts: 1867
Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:50 am Post subject: |
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not needling - just curious to know what ben thinks of working on conversions vs working on the original.
the WBX is a horrendous hack on the aircooled design. anyone who has had to remove the pistons will agree (and most novice will thank Ben for his awesome videos/info on his site). more that the hicups (or throw ups) are well known - not easy.
(ps, i'm not a purist. i'm a pragmatist. i ask because i want the easy/lazy choice)
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84 Vanagon Westy, 1.9L, California raised but defected to Canada. |
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hans j
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Joined: May 06, 2006
Posts: 2714
Location: Salt Lake City UT
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:54 am Post subject: |
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I had a similar experience with my conversion. Turned out I overlooked a wire that had barely pulled off it's power distribution block. I spent 3 days looking for it and it was right in front of my face. Take a step back for a day and take a look with fresh eyes.
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greebly
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Joined: August 27, 2009
Posts: 966
Location: Here and now
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| Ben, did you try turning the ignition to the on position without starting the engine for a couple of minutes to allow the throttle body to calibrate itself? |
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SCP_Austin
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Joined: November 04, 2009
Posts: 366
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:57 am Post subject: |
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Fair enough.
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#leftlanelife |
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ftp2leta
Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2004
Posts: 3271
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| greebly wrote: |
| Ben, did you try turning the ignition to the on position without starting the engine for a couple of minutes to allow the throttle body to calibrate itself? |
Ha ha ha, yea bro, I'm pass that little thing.
Please don't start a frigging stupid hate thread about conversion. I'm not even a Subi purist so please guys. We are all adult.
It's ok guys and I tank your for any suggestion you made.
Spent another 6 hours and I'm giving up for now, I have a second air plenum ready (2006-2010) and swapping tomorrow, There is a silencer of some sort in the metal air plenum that the plastic one doesn't have.
Sorry about not posting pictures but i will soon.
Basically it's been over 30 hours lost in some ways.
I told myself one thing over the years, it's NOT your conversion but something with the van.. at 95% I was always right.
To be honest, I'm missing the 2004-2008 years when all came to me on a silver platter.
I have a 2007 style harness ready with a 07 air plenum, I will fit those tomorrow and see.
In a way, I hope to have the same problem so it will mean that I may have succeeded with the other kit and it was a fuel/electric related glitch.
Lately I had my share of problem/glitch to a pint that I thought about my job. It's frustrating when thing go bad after one another. One morning you wake up and the problem is in your face...
Working alone is hard sometime.
Regards guys.
Ben
_________________
Working with rust, grease, dirt and dust is a sad truth.
------------------------------------------------------
FI part for sale: http://www.benplace.com/parts_sale1.htm
My site: http://www.benplace.com/vw2.htm
Subi conversion: http://www.benplace.com/vanaru_eng.htm
Youtube http://www.youtube.com/user/ftp2leta |
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Noblecr
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Joined: September 14, 2011
Posts: 103
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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You got to have faith Ben...Am sure if anyone can figure out this hiccup...its you!,
I have faith in you Ben.....and respect!!
C. |
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vanagonjr
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Joined: October 07, 2010
Posts: 3431
Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
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ftp2leta
Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2004
Posts: 3271
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:15 am Post subject: |
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I should be more clear.
Ok, the 2.5L SOHC was built from 1999 - 2013, in 2013 officially it's a DOHC but I guess that they had plenty of 2012 left.... Or it's a Canada thing I don't know.
In 2006 they added the VVT, Variable valve timing, they change the head and piston design. The main thing is that they increase the piston skirt to get rid of any possible piston slap.
In 08 CANBUS became mandatory on all car maker. Many make did ""practice" and test CANBUS since 2003.
Subi did the same. 07 is a transition year.
The intake-plenum sub harness did change on SOME car but not all...
Subi (and many other make) use a sub harness on the engine itself so the main harness can be simply unplug for maintenance. In general the pin location didn't change at all. Only the coolant temperature sender change from 3 to 2 pin. Easy fix
Ok, the SOHC was gone on the Forester and Impreza since 2010-11 but it remain on the basic form of the Legacy BUT with some pretty major change: Afully new 2 part oil pan with oil level sender. New engine mount location (old hole remain), completely new intake-plenum in plastic and single coil pack, NEW sub harness with different pin location.
CANBUS. What is CANBUS, it's simple, it's fully digital compare to analogical. Example, newer engin need to know the speed the car is doing, before 08 a simple magnet style ring on the transmission was sending speed data o the ECU. Easy to replicate, in 08 they did major change, the speed sender is now on both front wheel and integrated to the ABS braking system. The data is now send digitally. Now come the modulator box that translate the date into analog mode again.
08+ harness can be use but they are twice the length and need a modulator and you need to use the anti thief ignition system.
I did 4 of those and had it for so many reason ( i will elaborate one day). One is that the van would simply slow down on freeway... yep. I didn't have full control over the ECU. What you DON'T know, a Subi car will decelerate on it's own when slippery surface is detected. It's IN the speed sensor and ABS complex system!!!!!
I simply went back to the old harness, there is plenty of them available anywhere.
So, old harness (2006-2007) and ECU, most intake - plenum can be use easily and fitted on late Legacy engine.
What I did for the first time is use the NEW Legacy plastic intake WITH single coil pack.
First, I found out that the late injector are NOT the same, they are identical in shape but they shoot more gas... that was my first finding months ago, solve with older injector. Coil pack where also a problem.
This is getting long..... what I did yesterday is SIMPLY use the plastic intake and added a normal coil pack and older style sub harness.
But something else is STILL wrong....
Enough writing, time for picture.
By the way, R&D is very limited as a single guy who need to eat. I so wish I could only to R&D... it's so fun.
Yes I have a late 2.5L DOHC cam chain driven in my shed with it's own CANBUS harness. Superb engine but not much time to work on it lately.
the 2.5L Subi boxer is still one of the best replacement out there for our beloved van. The new 2.5L DOCH is here to stay and will be the replacement for the older SOCH engine.
Still, the DOHC is a pain to work INSIDE. That is another story.
I hope you have enjoyed reading this long morning text.
Ben
_________________
Working with rust, grease, dirt and dust is a sad truth.
------------------------------------------------------
FI part for sale: http://www.benplace.com/parts_sale1.htm
My site: http://www.benplace.com/vw2.htm
Subi conversion: http://www.benplace.com/vanaru_eng.htm
Youtube http://www.youtube.com/user/ftp2leta |
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16501
Location: Brookeville, MD
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ftp2leta
Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2004
Posts: 3271
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| dobryan wrote: |
Why yes, yes I have.... and your use of English for explaining this is incredible for a non native speaker....  |
thanks, nice of you to say so. for so many year I have received some very lame and nasty personal e-mail regarding my written English, some days I felt like responding to post here and elsewhere but I didn't.
Same goes for my French written in regard of French speaking folks.
My web site is in general bilingual, but full of written mistake, some just don't care and get the sense of it, some are jerks and piss me off.
Written language is not my dada.
Still trying hard.
Ben
_________________
Working with rust, grease, dirt and dust is a sad truth.
------------------------------------------------------
FI part for sale: http://www.benplace.com/parts_sale1.htm
My site: http://www.benplace.com/vw2.htm
Subi conversion: http://www.benplace.com/vanaru_eng.htm
Youtube http://www.youtube.com/user/ftp2leta |
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tschroeder0
Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2008
Posts: 2096
Location: Boulder CO
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:20 am Post subject: |
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anyone criticizing you for your language skills? That is complete crap, you are always very understandable at worst and speak as well as I do most of the time.
And, in the universal language of van, you my friend are Noam Chomsky. |
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Zeitgeist 13
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Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:21 am Post subject: |
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Ha!
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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ftp2leta
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Joined: October 11, 2004
Posts: 3271
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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Well, it has been 40-50 hours and enough of R&D, can't afford to loose more time. For now I have failed to have it working properly. I'm tired, pissed and drained out. I stayed as late as midnight some night, all that to have reverted to the 06-2010 metal intake. It now run like a champ.
A few picture on the last SOCH 2.5L edition of when I got it and with the mod. You can see that:
-it as no coil but 4 coil pack
-new style oil pan
-New belt system
-the fourth picture show where I think my problem reside. Behind the TB
I'm not giving up. I will stip open that intake and see what is causing the surging. It simply running 2 rich I'm sure at 90%
The worse, one T-belt idler is making noise due to water. Those engine are from a dealer that had a big flood. half of the car where scraped including the engine. About 40 engine where save with minimal water contact. Got to lower the engine..... to get the T-belt out so I'm double pissed.
_________________
Working with rust, grease, dirt and dust is a sad truth.
------------------------------------------------------
FI part for sale: http://www.benplace.com/parts_sale1.htm
My site: http://www.benplace.com/vw2.htm
Subi conversion: http://www.benplace.com/vanaru_eng.htm
Youtube http://www.youtube.com/user/ftp2leta |
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djkeev
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