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Overheating and feel like I have tried everything, need help
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58deadhead
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 6:39 pm    Post subject: Overheating and feel like I have tried everything, need help Reply with quote

Engine: 1600cc long block less than 3000 miles

Carb: EMPI 34pic3>have solex 31 with adapter that I could change but EMPI is new and I have no clue about solex

Distributor: Pertronix Electronic>new but still potential pos changing back to bosch 009 to see what happens

timing: 32 degrees fully advance

Tins: all there and so is the rubber flaps even installed foam liner from bus

vacuum leaks: none

Aside from changing out the distributor, I am out of Ideas and could really use some advice.

Oh and it is pissing oil out from the front pulley under hot load.
Ordered breather box and stock pulley but believe it is due to high engine temps because it isn't happening during idle.

Did I scorch the heads by accident?? That is my main concern next to getting back to normal operating temps. Please give me your input.

Btw I bought the cheap parts before I knew anything about garbage bug parts.
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58deadhead
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could my coil be wired wrong?
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volksworld
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dont panic yet...hot oil is thinner than cold oil and crankcase pressure increases with rpm so yes it will leak more but it doesnt mean its overheating....get a temp gauge before you do anything drastic
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58deadhead
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have digital CHT temp gauge that I bought after being unsure about a VDO CHT gauge but now I know that the VDO was being atleast somewhat accurate. hit mid 400s after a few slow miles in cool weather.
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johnnypan
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just let your engine break in some..
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75smith
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you could try turning the timing back to 28 and see what that does, you can also make sure there is nothing blocking the oil cooler or fan, also if you have a pulley much smaller then 6.5" then change it out you reduce the cooling power

you could also try to richen up the fuel mixture to make sure it isn't leaning out some

and while it is true newer engines do run hotter, there is some point where too much isn't good, so asking and trying a few things could make it better then if you just let it go(and sometimes you find a problem you didn't know you had so you can fix it before your 20 miles from home and can't go anywhere)
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Over heating is almost always timing! Depends on your distributor and your compression. With the 009 I would set it for at least 32 degrees full advance, nothing like a retarded timing to heat them up, running mine at 34'.
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keiths 69
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the advance working on the dist. If you set it to 32 at high rpm does it drop when at idle? could be stuck. Running lean will make it run hot. Is the gen belt tight? Do you have the correct fan in your shroud? older fans are thinner then new ones. Im not sure if it would make a big diff but if it doesnt fit right i can see the air not flowing correctly.
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Multi69s
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1st off, retarding the timing WILL NOT make an engine run hotter, especially in an air cooled engine like a VW where the majority of the cooling takes place in the head. Besides the CHT gauge, what else are you using to measure the symptoms of your engine overheating? I am not a big fan of CHT gauges for the simple reason that there is no easy way to make sure that they are calibrated right. Almost all gauges of any kind are way off in calibration, but at least with an oil temp gauge you can put the sender in a pan of boiling water and at least know what the gauge will read when the water boils (212 degrees).

A basically stock motor like yours should not be getting too hot unless you have a major air leak (how did you test it), it is really lean, or you are running it at 80mph on 100 degree days for long periods of time. So give us some more symptoms.

As far as the oil coming out of the pulley, it is probably unrelated. Check to make sure that the breather hose is not pinched or plugged. Pull off the hose and see if you feel puffs of air coming out of the breather box. Did you change the pulley? Maybe you got one that was made for a sand seal. It is also possible that the builder left the oil slinger off when the motor was built
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes its too obvious to see.

A rag, paper towel, whatever may have been left in the engine area and has been sucked into the fan blocking air flow.

The firewall tar board may be loose or delaminating and the fan sucks it against the fan inlet hole.

Dave
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58deadhead
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it definitely is too hot for break in. I could easily have hit 500 degrees or more and I think had already done that when the vdo was hooked up. I didn't believe the VDO and purchased the nicest CHT gauge and sender I could find, this one is accurate within a degree or two. I can't touch the case, let alone dip stick if that solidifies it.

Timing wise, I don't know if it is advancing or unadvancing with the current electronic distributor. It could be wired wrong to the coil and either burnt it up or didn't allow it to work properly. Either way I can't switch them until tomorrow morning. The case was too hot to do it after driving a few miles last night. When I do hook up the standard 009 the green wire just goes to the negative post on the coil, correct?

The pulley is an aluminum degree pulley and I purchased a stock steel one to replace. I didn't measure the diameter of the aluminum one but I did have to shave down the oil grooves for it to fit in the aluminum case. The stock ones apparently don't need to so I should have oil grooves again. The case is breathing, I can hear and feel the air but I ordered a breather box to be sure.

The oil cooler is the original german oil cooler, I remember it being a little beat up, it could be faulty.

Beyond all of this I have know clue what could be the issue. I really hope it has something to do with the distributor or coil wiring. Could my coil be bad? I don't know, I have to be in Fl by the 18th of this month(2500 miles) Kind of need to take the bug but will absolutely have to fly if this cooling issue doesn't get figured out.
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58deadhead
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I tried running rich too. Probably gonna pull the engine tomorrow if the distributor doesn't solve the issue and inspect oil cooler. Unless there is other ideas..
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the thermostat connected and working ?...Valves adjusted to .006"Cold ?...Change the engine oil again and use a magnetic drain plug....Take it for a nice long ride but not at excessive speeds...Stay off the freeways and don't overspeed the engine or lug the RPMs too low...Let everything finish the "break in" cycle....Then re-assess your overheating dilemma....It'll probably be just fine.
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volksworld
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stuck oil pressure relief piston can bypass oil cooler...are thermostat flaps open? is the spring on there to hold them open? (assuming no thermostat)....who built longblock? whats compression ratio?
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58deadhead
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No thermostat, not really sure what elements you are referring to either. This is my first aircooled, since, I was a kid I have always been more of reader of mechanics than a doer, so excuse my thermostat ignorance once I do what I have read I am usually good. John at PowerHaus VW out of California built the longblock. He has a strong following and great reviews, I can only back that up. It is still under warranty if there is something internally wrong but I have doubts that there is. I can only logically assume the distributor he warned me about is faulty. Or the oil cooler is blocked. Everything else mentioned above, I can verify, even properly tensioned belt.

I don't know the compression ratio, she is a stocker, valves are adjusted.
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has been my experience with my bugs and busses that there is about a 3 or 4 degree window where the timing can be placed for good results.

1. If the timing is too slow (Below about 10') at idle they will heat up to full road temp just idling.

2. If the timing is to slow below 29 or 30 degrees on the road they will heat up a little more especially on a warm day.

3. I have found that the 71 and later type 1 engines do a little better at between 30 and 43 degrees on the highway. (Load vs no Load) This may be true for single port engines but it just depends on the engine the stroke the compression ratio the gas the mixture etc... they did not time that fast. 35 degrees was considered tops on them. (Stroker Engines need a little more advance!)
4. You can tell when you have your VW properly timed not by how it revs up but how it cruses on the highway and it will be timed properly where it uses the least throttle to cruse on the level and gets the best MPG's and runs the coolest!
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58deadhead
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I gotta agree with you Dan, my heads got to nearly 300 degrees just idling probably even higher but I shut it down. I will have to double check with John at PowerHaus but if I recall correctly he recommended timing 7.5 btdc for the initial and then 32 degrees fully advanced. I would still like to go back to the 009 that was installed when I bought the bug. My brother wired the electronic distributor in FL and I don't remember how the 009 plugged in but there is only one wire and both of my negative posts are bare and I am guessing the green wire from the 009 goes onto a negative post. Given that correct in the morning when I switch distributors set initial to 7.5 btdc and consider 34 degrees fully advanced? I'm prepared to play with it a little bit but what is your step by step for timing? Is a dwell meter needed or can I just gap the points with feeler gauge?
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes that sounds right the green wire is the points and condenser wire from the distributor and it goes to the coil (-) wire while the coil (+) wire (15) goes to the 12 volt wire from the cars ignition. Set the 009 point gap .016" before installing it.
My 009 has #1 plug wire at about 4:00 O Clock while the Factory DVDA distributor has #1 90 degrees CCW at about 1:00 O Clock. So you may have to rotate your spark wires one position CW if this is the case on yours. The SVDA distributor would probably be the preferred distributor though if it's working right. Depends on if it matches the vacuum signature of the PICT/34 3 carb or whatever yours is.
Easy to check dynamic advance with a degree pulley and a timing light!
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check that the markings on the pulley are correct. You already had to modify that pulley so it would fit into the case so it is already suspect.

And yes, retarded timing can and will make the heads run hot (and the exhaust). Basically if you fire too late in the cycle some of the combustion process can wind up happening in the exhaust. EGTs go through the roof.

Also, if you've gotten the engine really hot since adjusting the valves, check them again.

Max
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the red light on,
or has it boiled over?

did it leave that big rusty water stain you may never gety off the cement

when is it too hot

as I recall it's a lot hotter with your head under the cover looking at it, than just driving around

has the paint left the tin?
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