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dirtkeeper
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Joined: February 19, 2008
Posts: 3200
Location: Left of everywhere
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 Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 8:54 pm Post subject: Do I have the right oil relief piston ? |
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I was changing my oil control piston and spring and oil relief piston and a m not sure if I am using the right parts.
I have a 5 year old dual relief case 2054 with about 20 k on it
I bought stock replacement pistons and springs for dual relief cases. From aircooled. The new relief spring is about a 1/4" longer than my old one and the control spring is about 1/8 longer AND the relief piston that came out is a solid one and the new one is grooved.
To confuse things more when I searched the subject I found different opinions on if the grooved piston was to be used in a new dual relief case " didn't really find a conclusion or consensus.
My start up pressure is definitely higher and warm up pressure seemed to be good at idle about 10 lbs. having some other issue with my gauges so I didn't monitor the pressure on my test drive today
My reason for replacing is low pressure when hot and a tendency to get hot just wanted to make sure I got the right parts in there |
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[email protected]
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Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Brew City
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 6:39 am Post subject: Re: Do I have the right oil relief piston ? |
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| dirtkeeper wrote: |
I was changing my oil control piston and spring and oil relief piston and a m not sure if I am using the right parts.
I have a 5 year old dual relief case 2054 with about 20 k on it
I bought stock replacement pistons and springs for dual relief cases. From aircooled. The new relief spring is about a 1/4" longer than my old one and the control spring is about 1/8 longer AND the relief piston that came out is a solid one and the new one is grooved.
To confuse things more when I searched the subject I found different opinions on if the grooved piston was to be used in a new dual relief case " didn't really find a conclusion or consensus.
My start up pressure is definitely higher and warm up pressure seemed to be good at idle about 10 lbs. having some other issue with my gauges so I didn't monitor the pressure on my test drive today
My reason for replacing is low pressure when hot and a tendency to get hot just wanted to make sure I got the right parts in there |
I did a month long study of oil pressure readings with different pistons and springs. My conclusion was that there are at least 10 different combination's that you can use that will work. My opinion would be to reassemble it with the same type of springs and pistons that came with it.
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mark tucker
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Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| stick them in they will work just fine. |
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Quokka42
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Joined: December 02, 2010
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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I think what the guys are saying is that if it is working you don't have a problem. I believe the ones aircooled sell are correct anyway - new springs will always be a little longer as they haven't got tired and lost pressure yet. The grooved piston was added later in the engine life, but I've never seen an explanation why that makes sense. Usually people say it is to allow oil to flow into the galley when cold, but I can't see where the circuit is. It works OK in any case.
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dirtkeeper
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Joined: February 19, 2008
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| thanks. i'm going with the new stuff . I'll monitor the change it made when i get my gauges back working. |
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dirtkeeper
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Joined: February 19, 2008
Posts: 3200
Location: Left of everywhere
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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So after driving a little more and getting my gauge working.
My cold pressure is over 60 lbs and goes towards 80 and I'm worried I'm gonna rev it up cold and blow the oil cooler or make a leak , more than it already does .
At about 140 degrees the pressure starts to drop to 10-20lbs at 900 rpm up to 30-35lbs at 3k rpm
When I start climbing past 190 degrees it will get up to 30lbs at 3k rpms and at idle , pressure drops real low and the light starts to flicker . I know all the discussions about this seem to imply its fine as long as I have pressure when the rpms come up. It just worries me to see my oil light flashing on.
Any way , I want to lower my cold pressure down . Should I change back both the springs and pistons or just one set . ?
Do I have to drain the oil to replace these? |
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[email protected]
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Joined: August 15, 2002
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Location: Brew City
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| dirtkeeper wrote: |
So after driving a little more and getting my gauge working.
My cold pressure is over 60 lbs and goes towards 80 and I'm worried I'm gonna rev it up cold and blow the oil cooler or make a leak , more than it already does .
At about 140 degrees the pressure starts to drop to 10-20lbs at 900 rpm up to 30-35lbs at 3k rpm
When I start climbing past 190 degrees it will get up to 30lbs at 3k rpms and at idle , pressure drops real low and the light starts to flicker . I know all the discussions about this seem to imply its fine as long as I have pressure when the rpms come up. It just worries me to see my oil light flashing on.
Any way , I want to lower my cold pressure down . Should I change back both the springs and pistons or just one set . ?
Do I have to drain the oil to replace these? |
Just put back in what worked before and you won't have any problems.
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midtravelmidengine
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Joined: August 06, 2009
Posts: 861
Location: Riverside, Ca
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:04 am Post subject: |
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What weight oil are you using?
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mark tucker
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Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| springs will not raise low rpm hot low pressure.none zilch nada. did you check the piston dia? bugpoop had a batch of undersized kits out there.and they will lower the idle pressure. you may also have other issues going on. If oil pressure changes it's usualy a sine of something. I dont use the still spring in the cooler relief ,just the oe soft spring(pully end) this may/should lower your cold pressure and let the oil get warmer sooner.I wish that piston was 1/4" longer as it has that big oil gally in the side of it and can wear the bore more with short piston especialy when somebody that dosent know what there doing pulls that plug&taps it for a screw in plug.there is no need to ever pull the oe plug there. |
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dirtkeeper
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Joined: February 19, 2008
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Location: Left of everywhere
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| midtravelmidengine wrote: |
| What weight oil are you using? |
30 weight brad penn
i'll put the old ones back in. |
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[email protected]
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Joined: August 03, 2002
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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what oil pressure switch are you using? Stock or a 2 pole VDO sender?
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dirtkeeper
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| what oil pressure switch are you using? Stock or a 2 pole VDO sender? |
2 pole vdo .
I question the sender a little bit. I understood the warning light comes on at about 7 lbs instead of 3-5 as the stock does. So originally the warning light came on when the gauge read just below 10 lbs. now the warning light doesn't come on until the gauge is well below 10lbs...... Near zero on the gauge.
Do I have to drain the oil to replace the springs? |
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[email protected]
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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I'd change to 10-40 oil and run it. Those gauges are not accurate below 10psi, it's just a reference. You aren't going to get top dollar results with a $40 gauge.
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neil68
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:23 pm Post subject: relief valves |
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I've dismantled many dual-relief cases since the 70's and every one came from Germany with two solid relief valves. Everybody else I've discussed this with, also has seen the same consistency.
AFAIK, the grooved valve is from the 1500S engine, and was never used in a Beetle.
Not sure why the replacement kits are coming with the grooved valve...
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Eric&Barb
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:16 pm Post subject: Re: relief valves |
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| neil68 wrote: |
Not sure why the replacement kits are coming with the grooved valve... |
Because they are better for cooling, but not to be used in areas that get much lower than 70 F weather.
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kreemoweet
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: relief valves |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| neil68 wrote: |
Not sure why the replacement kits are coming with the grooved valve... |
Because they are better for cooling, but not to be used in areas that get much lower than 70 F weather. |
They are not "better for cooling", when used in a dual-relief case. The grooved pistons that VW put in some late single-relief
cases depended for their operation on the existence of a bleed port in the case that allowed oil from the main gallery to
pass thru the groove in the piston, thru the bleed port, and into the sump, thereby increasing the flow thru the oil cooler and
reducing temps somewhat. That port does not exist on a (stock) dual-relief case. Therefore, the groove in the piston is completely useless in that application. But then the grooved piston is longer than the stock one, which has the effect of increasing the
spring pressure on the piston, so the oil cooler will not be bypassed until a greater pressure is put out. I suppose that might
result in increased oil cooling (as well as creating higher-than-designed stress on the oil cooler), but the same thing could be achieved by using a longer/stronger/shimmed spring. There might be some point in using a grooved piston if the bleed
port is also drilled out at the appropriate place.
Also of note is the fact than many of these oil piston/spring kits are including a "grooved" piston with an angled bottom
groove surface, unlike the straight grooved pistons VW put in some single-relief Type 3 engines. I seem to have seen
pistons like that being used in some Type 4 engines. I can only guess that they are being used in the kits because China is turning
them out dirt-cheap.
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[email protected]
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: relief valves |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| neil68 wrote: |
Not sure why the replacement kits are coming with the grooved valve... |
Because they are better for cooling, but not to be used in areas that get much lower than 70 F weather. |
Only if you use yellow spark plug wires 
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Eric&Barb
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: relief valves |
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VW 1500 Workshop Manual, section M-8, page 4.
Quote:
"From August 1966,Chassi No. 317016204 (Engine No. K 0072215), the oil pressure relief valve (with annular groove) - 311115411 - which was previously installed only in twin carburetor engines is installed in production in all engines except the 1.2 liter engine. By this means the oil temperature will be reduced somewhat.
The plunger may be installed in older engines."
Interesting to hear that these do not work in the same dual relief case engines as in single relief cases! Still as you noted the grooved piston is longer so more spring pressure and thusly more oil thru the cooler when getting hotter and higher RPMs.
Yes this means higher oil pressure at start up, but that is more than likely the same reason VW later advised not using the groove piston in engines that were going to be run in weather below 70 F.
The Bentley VW Official Service Guide for 1970-79 type 1 shows exact same exploded parts photo of the grooved piston, spring, plug, and gasket as shown in the 1500 workshop manual..... 
Personally will not use the grooved piston due to the weather we have driven has gotten as low as -6 F.
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esde
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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Some pics to maybe illustrate whats being discussed. Is the grooved bore to accompany the grooved piston what is in the first and second picture?
And, I have taken what seems to be VW grooved pistons out of a number of dual relief engines. One of these is a never rebuilt late 70's fuel injected case, everything is still standard, I am probably the first person to split the case, and it had the grooved piston (not the tapered groove like the last pic) |
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esde
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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one more
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