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mrshrimp
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2013
Posts: 373
Location: Portland
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 Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:05 pm Post subject: Re: The Portland Oregon Area is Happening! |
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| Mikesarge wrote: |
| So what’s your solution? Throw more money at the violent thugs who tear gas neighborhoods and beat people up for... standing in the street? We’ve been doing that since at least WWII here in Portland. How has it worked |
Yeah, that’s right...throw more money at people standing in the street damaging and stealing property. I live I portland like you, and it’s become a real crap show. Hire more good cops please, we need them bad. |
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Mikesarge
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2008
Posts: 222
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:15 am Post subject: Re: The Portland Oregon Area is Happening! |
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People whose basic needs are met don’t commit petty theft, because it’s not necessary.
People who have access to ordinary means of redress don’t protest, because it’s not necessary.
It’s really simple! You can address root causes-it’s harder work, you have to engage in honest critique of society, but it can be done, and is actually effective-
or you can continue to wield state violence at people, which has not worked yet.
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1986 Syncro westfauxlia EJ22
1980 911 SC 3.1 |
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childofthewind
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2010
Posts: 763
Location: Eastern Sierra
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: The Portland Oregon Area is Happening! |
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There are times I miss Portland, sometimes quite badly.
What I don't miss is how often my cars were broken into over the 20 years I lived there. A broken window for some change in the ashtray. Always having to watch your back.
_________________
1987.5 wolfsburg hardtop; 2.1
“As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote." - Melville |
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Merian
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Joined: January 04, 2014
Posts: 5212
Location: Orygun
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4Gears4Tires
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018
Posts: 3042
Location: MD
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: The Portland Oregon Area is Happening! |
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Could they put a killswitch on the portapotty?
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'87 Syncro
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9609
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:03 am Post subject: Re: The Portland Oregon Area is Happening! |
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| 4Gears4Tires wrote: |
Could they put a killswitch on the portapotty? |
Rather than the expense and vulnerability of Red porta-potties, the city could offer "red carpets" to community homes who are willing to offer up their own facilities.
Similar to the 'red toilet' a red carpet would serve as a beacon to incoming residents, as to which homes and apartments are available for use.
The number of red-carpets in a community would quickly signify how welcoming the community is to the new residents.
More red carpets could be added as the residents adapt, if it proves to be an attractive convenience.
And it would be community-based rather than dictated by the city.
For apartment dwellers, the city would only have to supply one red carpet.
Apartments are a housing efficiency of course and one resident can 'speak' for many.
Downside is - this orhanic method would satisfy the segment of taxpayers that the city employees or council likes to aggravate, so there wouldn't be much impetus from within the city.
Vanagon owners who have portable toilets in their vans parked on the street could contribute too.
They put a red carpet outside their slider door.
So this could be an example of a porta-pottie with a killswitch.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:06 am Post subject: Re: The Portland Oregon Area is Happening! |
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| Mikesarge wrote: |
People whose basic needs are met don’t commit petty theft, because it’s not necessary.
People who have access to ordinary means of redress don’t protest, because it’s not necessary.
It’s really simple! You can address root causes-it’s harder work, you have to engage in honest critique of society, but it can be done, and is actually effective-
or you can continue to wield state violence at people, which has not worked yet. |
Word. |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9609
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:57 am Post subject: Re: The Portland Oregon Area is Happening! |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| Mikesarge wrote: |
| People whose basic needs are met don’t commit petty theft, because it’s not necessary. |
Word. |
But how do you direct the theft towards the people who deserve to lose stuff?
And how do you ensure that the people who have "the need" are getting the benefit?
Who's gonna advocate for the addicts to get their share? They need to get it from the ultra-rich, but currently have access to their own communities, taxing people who have relatively little to spare.
Giving the addicts access to a wealthier section of society improves supply, but they can only move up a tiny bit (like into the suburbs).
As said, it’s harder work, you have to engage in honest critique of society.
I don't believe it' simple.
You have to identify those who deserve stuff stolen (probably people who have savings, assets, unnecessary comforts, hobbies, homeowners).
Then you must identify those who deserve to get it, while preventing middle-management from taking the lions-share.
It's not done here in the US, likely being exacerbated as the wealthy gathers more and more all the time.
If it can be done, and is actually effective, then in all the world...., where is an example of this being done well?
repeated, "it’s harder work, you have to engage in honest critique of society."
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Mikesarge
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2008
Posts: 222
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:41 pm Post subject: Re: The Portland Oregon Area is Happening! |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| Mikesarge wrote: |
| People whose basic needs are met don’t commit petty theft, because it’s not necessary. |
Word. |
But how do you direct the theft towards the people who deserve to lose stuff?
And how do you ensure that the people who have "the need" are getting the benefit?
Who's gonna advocate for the addicts to get their share? They need to get it from the ultra-rich, but currently have access to their own communities, taxing people who have relatively little to spare.
Giving the addicts access to a wealthier section of society improves supply, but they can only move up a tiny bit (like into the suburbs).
As said, it’s harder work, you have to engage in honest critique of society.
I don't believe it' simple.
You have to identify those who deserve stuff stolen (probably people who have savings, assets, unnecessary comforts, hobbies, homeowners).
Then you must identify those who deserve to get it, while preventing middle-management from taking the lions-share.
It's not done here in the US, likely being exacerbated as the wealthy gathers more and more all the time.
If it can be done, and is actually effective, then in all the world...., where is an example of this being done well?
repeated, "it’s harder work, you have to engage in honest critique of society." |
It is hard work, we agree there, but you’re looking in the wrong direction. There are a few people who steal a lot from working people every day, we should probably start there. They’ve stolen more than we could ever loot. It’s impossible, as an individual, to “earn” a billion dollars in one lifetime. It’s just not possible. To do that, you’re stealing from people who work for you and who created that value, or taxpayers who pay for infrastructure, or natural world systems that spent millions of years creating resources owned by “the public trust,” or likely a combination. Those stolen resources are a debt in the form of externalized costs ultimately paid for by the greater society.
It’s a massive, structural issue. The myth of the rugged individual. The myth of scarcity. It’s a known fact that there is more than enough to go around in this country, but our culture is so rotten that people would rather kick their neighbor and fellow human while they’re down, than give them a hand, or direct their consternation towards those who truly deserve it. People don’t think they’re poor, just temporarily embarrassed millionaires, so they defend the leisure class who steals the value of their labor, and scorn people who fall through the cracks.
We, as a country, have spent the last 50 years hollowing out the social safety net, and transferring wealth from the middle class to the leisure class through the tax code and erosion of social programs. Where we are now is not an accident, it’s the result of Reagan-era policies (helped along by the steady move rightward by the “opposition” party,) and unchecked capitalism and exploitation of the masses, for the benefit of a select few.
(Back on topic)
It’s all interconnected, like my favorite vehicle, my vanagon. When the bushings are wearing out, it causes tire wear, and premature failure of other parts. A blown out ball joint destroys the CV joint, the upright, the brake line, and dents body panels. Each of the pieces depends on the rest, and a catastrophic failure in one spot has consequences that ripple throughout.
Who has a recommendation for a good body shop in Portland????
P.s. look up “civil asset forfeiture,” cops have stolen more from people than burglars every year since 2013.
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1986 Syncro westfauxlia EJ22
1980 911 SC 3.1 |
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:20 pm Post subject: Re: The Portland Oregon Area is Happening! |
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When you understand how the political economy functions, you can easily see where it fails, and in fact where it leads to exponential failures via the externalities it produces. This is how we ended up with homelessness, a hollowing out of the middle class and inevitably the current political climate. Both parties contributed to our current precarious state.
Most body shops won't know much about suspension work, and most mechanic shops aren't helpful for body work. Full service comprehensive automotive work is mostly left to boutique restoration $hop$
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Mikesarge
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2008
Posts: 222
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:37 pm Post subject: Re: The Portland Oregon Area is Happening! |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
When you understand how the political economy functions, you can easily see where it fails, and in fact where it leads to exponential failures via the externalities it produces. This is how we ended up with homelessness, a hollowing out of the middle class and inevitably the current political climate. Both parties contributed to our current precarious state.
Most body shops won't know much about suspension work, and most mechanic shops aren't helpful for body work. Full service comprehensive automotive work is mostly left to boutique restoration $hop$ |
Agreed.
Luckily, my van is fine for now, but it’s not because I’ve been a passive owner, or blamed the van’s problems on other drivers, or even prior owners. Like any vanagon owner worth their salt, I’ve spent years listening closely, observing changes in driving dynamics, diagnosing problems, and actively changing parts that need changing. It hasn’t always been easy and I’ve often been frustrated. My van needed way more work than I thought when I bought it!
Sometimes it’s awful inconvenient to deal with unexpected repairs. But, after doing the hard work, the result is a fairly dependable vehicle that’s nearly 40 years old, and that I’d trust to drive across the country tomorrow. It requires frequent maintenance and tinkering, and it’s never perfect, but I sure love it, and importantly, I always try to find ways to make it better.
Is this metaphor getting too tortured at this point??
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1986 Syncro westfauxlia EJ22
1980 911 SC 3.1 |
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:49 pm Post subject: Re: The Portland Oregon Area is Happening! |
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When you sign on for owning and driving a thirty year old vehicle, you're either fully in it to win it, or you're just a placeholder until someone else steps up and assumes that role/burden. There aren't too many half measures anymore. While I love my Vanagon, I don't recommend them to others I don't think are ready for the challenge.
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9609
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:09 am Post subject: Re: The Portland Oregon Area is Happening! |
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If the civill asset forfeiture is police burglarizing criminals, that's something similar to taxing citizens.
| Mikesarge wrote: |
| Is this metaphor getting too tortured at this point?? |
Well, not if you agree that a Vanagon is a 1 percenter's luxury to an 'untouchable' in India.
Perhaps even the gasoline to drive it or to purchase a new balljoint.
The notion that there can be a justification to filch things from people's cars, or even filch their vanagon for a few days could be honorable in any way, shape or form, is coffeeshop talk. There is no honor. It's lowlife, period.
And it ruins a city.
Here's a perspective for ya. How much does a specialty metals seller get for a Sprinter's catalytic converter? $50? $200? Let it be known that the Mercedes dealer gets $1400 in labor and $2600 for parts. There are about six bolts they have to turn and a few electrical connectors. $4,000. No honor there either, but that's "high Life".
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Mikesarge
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2008
Posts: 222
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:43 am Post subject: Re: The Portland Oregon Area is Happening! |
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| Sodo wrote: |
If the civill asset forfeiture is police burglarizing criminals, that's something similar to taxing citizens.
| Mikesarge wrote: |
| Is this metaphor getting too tortured at this point?? |
Well, not if you agree that a Vanagon is a 1 percenter's luxury to an 'untouchable' in India.
Perhaps even the gasoline to drive it or to purchase a new balljoint.
The notion that there can be a justification to filch things from people's cars, or even filch their vanagon for a few days could be honorable in any way, shape or form, is coffeeshop talk. There is no honor. It's lowlife, period.
And it ruins a city.
Here's a perspective for ya. How much does a specialty metals seller get for a Sprinter's catalytic converter? $50? $200? Let it be known that the Mercedes dealer gets $1400 in labor and $2600 for parts. There are about six bolts they have to turn and a few electrical connectors. $4,000. No honor there either, but that's "high Life". |
Cops are not supposed to act as judge, jury, and executioner under the law. That’s the problem.
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1980 911 SC 3.1 |
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4Gears4Tires
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018
Posts: 3042
Location: MD
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:03 am Post subject: Re: The Portland Oregon Area is Happening! |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| If the civill asset forfeiture is police burglarizing criminals, that's something similar to taxing citizens. |
No, not even close. CAF is selectively enforced (unfortunately similar to taxes right now) and goes into police budgets, not the budgets for everyone. The vast majority also agree to get taxed and pay their taxes every year. I'm not sure I can find anyone who agrees to get CAF'd.
It's on the books because of combating piracy before we had the internet and instant access to records and bills of lading. In today's use it is unfortunately very equivalent to theft. It is the reason I never carry cash to buy cars. I have bought and sold a lot of cars. My preferred method is instant wireless transfer or being at the bank when a cashier's check is written simply because I am afraid I will be robbed by the police. You can refuse a search, they can still find the money, they can seize it saying it is suspicious even if you state you just sold a car, the courts can say the search was unlawful, and you will have very little recourse in recouping that money. It's a very real, very bad thing.
And now of course we can descend in to the conspiracy theories of why it's still around. Like changing the populations views towards the use of cash and effectively forcing the use of payment methods that can all be tracked by the government and corporations. Which I don't think is very far fetched at all. Also possibly changing the mindset of officers from being there to serve the community to seeing the community as targets of opportunity.
I am very much in support of the police as I think they are necessary for a functional society, however they must follow the Peelian Principles. Not everyone thinks like you do or has the same respect for property and I very wish for my stuff to be at my house and my van to be in the garage when I get home.
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9609
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:25 am Post subject: Re: The Portland Oregon Area is Happening! |
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| 4Gears4Tires wrote: |
| Sodo wrote: |
| If the civil asset forfeiture is police burglarizing criminals, that's something similar to taxing citizens. |
Also possibly changing the mindset of officers from being there to serve the community to seeing the community as targets of opportunity. |
This is truly a prevalent mindset?
I doubt it.
I think it's legend based on the actions of a tiny minority (that needs to be rooted OUT).
If this was widespread there would be YouTube videos of bribery attempts where cops attempt to line their own pockets "rightnow".
Like stories of cops behavior in Mexico ( I have some of those to tell from the '90s).
Thieves cannot be so patient as to stand by, while cash is taken from regular people and submitted into the 'general police fund' for equipment etc, with no accounting etc.
No way! Thieves encounter cash and they put it in their pocket, hiding it even from their partners for the simple reason of 'not sharing'.
And if any others find out about it, that generates infighting.
It would blow up, and become visible.
Agreed that all CAF should be fully transparent and published in the public record. Any money transfers hidden in the background creates "a channel for corruption"
A similar example is large municipal settlements like "Family receives $5.5M from the city of...." This is not transparent. The family received 2/3 and the attorney received 1/3.
The amount of municipal funds received and who received it, should in the public record.
The attorney being allowed to hid in the background creates the illusion that (he) was not the primary driver and solicitor in this (significant municipal) business transaction.
Transparency is the only hope.
100% with you on the Peelian Principles of policing, thanks for that!
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Mikesarge
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2008
Posts: 222
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:21 am Post subject: Re: The Portland Oregon Area is Happening! |
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The first peelian principle is laughable.
HOW do police PREVENT crime? through deterrence via threat of violence? is that working now? So increase police to being on every single street corner all of the time, actively and evenly enforcing every single law? Sounds like a delightful way to live.
Crime is already illegal. The cops, by law, are not the people in charge of punishment. This country's obsession with punishment is disgusting to me, but that's another story for another time I guess.
c'mon man. I'll refer to my prior post on why petty crime happens.
Demanding blanket "cooperation" with police is bonkers too. So, what the cops say, goes? they already wield tremendous power with almost no oversight, and essentially zero risk of consequences for gross misconduct. This is the essence of why people have been protesting.
Maybe it's because of my professional training, but I sure get hung up on that dang due process clause that shows up twice on that crazy outdated document so many people claim to love in this country.
The premise of each of these is fantasy. It requires police to act in a completely different way than they currently do. I'd love for the best of this it to be true, but with the current culture of police unions (and police bureaus) in this country, it's just not within the realm of reality. Philosophy vs. application.
It seems to me like we live in very different worlds. I'm still trying to figure out how to reconcile those.
I'm going to bow out of this conversation, because we're just talking past eachother at this point, if you think this is even close to viable under the current system.
I do appreciate folks taking the time to give their perspective though. Rare to have an opportunity for this amount of back and forth on the web without it turning rotten.
Vanagons are good common ground to start from! I'm going to cut a hole in mine soon, so I'll start posting about that, instead of foundational cultural problems, shortly.
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1980 911 SC 3.1 |
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Slimvest
Samba Member
Joined: March 20, 2014
Posts: 431
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: The Portland Oregon Area is Happening! |
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This topic is so tough. The more you dig, the more challenges you uncover.
I've been a Portlander for 15+ years, originally from the Seattle area. I'm frustrated with the mayor, the Police union (A LOT), the bad actors in the protest movement, and what only seems like a worsening homeless problem. Petty car crime has happened to me over the years and my garage was robbed a few years ago. Not saying it's my fault, but I know I left valuables in my cars and access to my garage that could have easily been avoided. Crime happens.
I've traveled and lived in various areas of the US and I still would live in no other city. The Portland Oregon Area is STILL Happening (for me and all the people that keep moving here). Moving to a rural area has its appeal, but only because I'm aging, getting tired of people and traffic. I know I'd miss the food, beer and Vanagon mechanics. 
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: The Portland Oregon Area is Happening! |
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If you want to learn and more importantly understand the homelessness crisis, I can't recommend this podcast highly enough. It covers my hometown, but the scenarios and tragedies are applicable all over the country.
https://www.npr.org/podcasts/795090517/outsiders
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Corwyn 
Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009
Posts: 2238
Location: Olympia, Washington
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: The Portland Oregon Area is Happening! |
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Yep - The Portland, Oregon area is certainly happening; but how much of this is Vanagon-related?
Time to lock this thread?
_________________
'90 White Westy ("The Longship")
FAS Gen V 2.0
The Annual Baja Rally
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=604813&highlight=baja
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