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Rear drum brake spacer mod
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Gizmoman
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atomatom wrote:
So gurus - how do you get these buggers off without breaking your brakes? Heat? Serious whallops with a sledge hammer? Vice grips? Twisting? Pulling? Screaming and shouting? Buying a new backing plate?

All of the above - especially the shouting.

Soak the assembly in PB blaster or you choice of rust dissolver.
Once the shoe is out of the slot, they can be turned 360 - once you brake them free that is.

I made my shims on a lathe. Ended up at .070" thick - drums and shoes are very close to new. The contact is nearly 80%
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atomatom
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had really wanted to remove the pivot pin holder from the backing plate and dunk it in some rust eating concoction. I was worried about breaking the backing plate though. After a few hours I gave up. Maybe I'll try another day. I got my new brake shoes on though. I guess they'll stay mostly new and unworn until I shim them. The old ones had some serious slant to them - perhaps twice as thick on one end.

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Welldon82
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pivot pins...

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Took about 30 minutes to get both out.

Used a flathead screwdriver and a 3lb hammer. tapped around the "seals" of the pins to try and loosen them, got some clearance than worked the screwdriver in a circular motion around the pins with light taps from the hammer.

Also used vice grips to turn them, just to get them moving. Be careful not to break them, not too much torque. Got the vice grips locked down and then hit the grips with a hammer and they came right out
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

atomatom wrote:
So gurus - how do you get these buggers off without breaking your brakes? Heat? Serious whallops with a sledge hammer? Vice grips? Twisting? Pulling? Screaming and shouting? Buying a new backing plate?


If you are thinking about removing the pivot pins to clean them up & lube them so they are free in the holder, there is one & only one painless way.
Heat the area's up I have marked cherry red, & they will pull/ wiggle right out.


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If you do not have a oxy acetylene torch, forget about it.
You'll never get the area hot enough to get them to spin free & out of the holders.
This is the correct approach to remove them painlessly anyway.
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kalispell365
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most importantly...Put anti seize on both the pin and the hole in the retainer where the pin is inserted and they will stay free indefinitely.
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use High Temp / No Washout Sticky grease.
Mystic JT-8.
Anti sieze will allow the pins to freeze up again in time, the grease won't.
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Jeff's Old Volks Home
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not use the adjusters from an older bus?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^ It's been done - you just gotta find the parts... Rolling Eyes
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vanagonjon
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Free up the pivots with heat, then arc the shoes, see the following - http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/303134/. As they say, it's not rocket science. This procedure will allow your parking brake to actually work as an emergency brake if your cables are good and the adjustment is correct. I can remember when my uncle that passed away recently was a young mechanic at a local service station he would come home filthy, my grandmother would make him strip down and clean up in the yard using the garden hose. This is how they did it then, with cable actuated (drum, of course) brakes still in use in many older models of cars. No shiny floors and reception areas with latte and croissants in the 60's, much more gritty..........

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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the problem.
You "fellows" are assuming that by adding these shims to move the bottom of the shoes out a hair that you are some kind of miracle workers, without one ounce of physical evidence what's going to ride where inside that drum.
I have mentioned the radiusing of the shoes to the drums innumerable amount of times to get a visual, positive, verifiable fit of the shoe's to the drums for positive, efficient, rear brake operation.
Adding these shims blind is truely one of the more insane things I seen here In OZ.
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr.Leghorn,
Because for some reason you refuse to stay current in reading prior posts, the brakes function perfectly in my Vanagon & Type 2 Bus.
New drums, New shoes, new hardware.
I took the time to prepare the shoes to fit the drums in an automotive industry accepted, proven, and performed all over the planet.
You're taken some shade tree hack job and think you got something without any brake installation prep.
I sure hope your garagekeepers liability is current, for this hayseed operation.Just answer me this in some sort of verifiable manner.
After you you have this all done, how do you verify where & how the shoes are riding in the drums?
Case closed, Again,& for the 8th time you can't assure how those shoes are going to ride
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Last edited by Terry Kay on Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:28 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Gizmoman
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW, I made my shims but washers would work as well.
One very important note though, the drums need to be within spec (see your bentley). The shimming is not a bandaid for thin drums - it's a band-aid for new shoes that don't fit and you can't find an old school brake shop that knows anything about "truing" new shoes.

A true arc matched to your drums is ideal and the shims don't achieve that. They do get it "truer" than it would be without them though.

Band aid - yes, but a very good one. My van stops better than it ever did before the shimming and the hand brake works better as well.

Please do not shim the shoes to make up for worn drums - that decision may result in much deadness. Shocked
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j_dirge
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terry Kay wrote:

After you you have this all done, how do you verify where & how the shoes are riding in the drums?
Case closed, Again,& for the 8th time you can't assure how those shoes are going to ride

You look at the wear patterns of the shoe, Einstein.
Same way you check any shoes for proper wear..
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those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terry Kay wrote:

Them two shims on the lower pivot point for them shoes will DO NOTHING TO CAUSE THEM TO MATCH THE DRUM RADIUS.


No one said it did. I certainly did not.

And "matching the radius" is not the intent.. now think on it a little more.. You're very near the idea.
So very close.
Rubbachicken even gave you another hint...
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danfromsyr wrote:
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<<i've done this brake mod, it works very well, there is more shoe to drum contact, as a result the brakes work better.>>
I'll mention this all one more time.
If in fact the shims were a required item of brake improvement, VW would have had a service & parts bulletin on this.
There is none.
If the shoes are new, & the drums are new & had one pass over them to assure them being true--the shoes radiused to fit the drum--and all of the hardware new--then the brakes properly adjusted--there should be no reason to be moving the shoes closer to the drum.
Like why?
<<you remember what a 70's bus rear brake set up looks like, with the adjustment being at the pivot point in the bottom, adding a shim is like adjusting the shoes>>
Yea--but the buses didn't have an adjuster on top to spread them apart any more--that was it-- the bottom adjuster's.
<<we all know that the automatic adjusting mechanism sucks.>>
They are a pain no doubt--so what your tring to do is work around the automatic adjuster?
There still is the manual aduster that will tighten the shoes up when they need it.
Your saying you never will have to adjust the brakes again?

Like I said, my brakes work really good, and I just can't see stuffing the shoes closer to the drum so they wear out faster.
And you will have to admit, anyone mentioning that the shims will automaticly cause the shoes to be true to the drum is in no way shape or form going to happen , just because you have positioned them closer to the drum on the bottom of the shoes.
If they have high & low spots--so be it, that's the way they are going to be unless a guy has them trued up prior to installation.

Don't get EJ Potter involved--he is / was a real Mad Man--
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<<and you'd STILL have to check fit, yourself, since so much shop work these days is half-assed.>>

Your right.
I do my own, why is everyone else having an issue with this?
It isn't difficult--
In a matter of fact it's an easier job than trying to yank out that frozen pivot to add the washer--

<<Or you can buy a couple of cheap washers and have the next best thing.>>

Well here ya go--whoever said this was implicating that this is as good, if not a better a deal than having the shoes fit plum on the drums.
Who was this guy?
This is what eludes me, who could think that a couple of shims are going to make the shoes fit the drum right?
All's it's doing is making the shoes hit the drum faster--not making them fit any better.
They will not remove any irregularies in the shoe material--which happens all of the time--fresh out of the box.
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Hammy1
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As much as hate to admit it...I agree with Terry (sigh, I hang my head in shame!). I've changed quite a few rear brakes in various new cars with rear drum brakes. Some of the OEM manufactures don't even put brake lining down the entire surface of the shoe, only about half way. This is for a reason, this rear brake design has been used around the world by numerous manufactures for a long time. I'm sure all those engineers would have put put some $.02 washers in there if they needed to fix this braking issue which, on this forum, seems to be plaguing this design. Why are rear brake pads on car with rear disc so small and not just as big as the front?

I do believe the poor contact with brake lining on the drum is , sort of a built in, mechanical brake biasing so the rear doesn't lock up before it should. Under hard braking this will prevent the car from fishtailing in an un expected way. I've done testing with my adjustable brake biasing control in my Autocross Porsche, too much rear brake is not good, especially going hot into a corner


Anybody tear around a parking lot with a bit snow and pull the hand brake? Yahoo!

Flame on!

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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terry Kay wrote:

This is what eludes me, who could think that a couple of shims are going to make the shoes fit the drum right?
All's it's doing is making the shoes hit the drum faster--not making them fit any better.
They will not remove any irregularies in the shoe material--which happens all of the time--fresh out of the box.


I'll be the first to admit that I have never added shims to the Vanagon pivot pins, but I can see what the shims do and how they could yield a benefit for some.

Terry, have you ever adjusted early Ford brakes, like 1940 Ford brakes for example? I'm assuming that you are old enough to at least be aware of the procedure, but if not, there are two different eccentric adjusters per shoe, one in the middle and one at the bottom. The middle one moves the shoe in and out in relation to the drum and the lower one moves the shoe up and down in relation to the drum. The combination of these two adjustments allows the shoe to gain the maximum contact with the drum. Granted, the early Ford brakes were the Lockheed "fixed anchor" type versus the"self adjusting" Bendix type that the Vanagon uses, but shy of properly arching the shoes to the drum, I can see how moving the shoe up or down in relation to the drum can help position that shoe to make maximum contact with the drum.

Again, I've never actually done the Vanagon shoe shimming myself, but I can see the principal behind it.
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j_dirge
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hammy,
On the biasing issue.. many of us are using non-OEM brakes up front, and the rears could use a little oomph to stay in the proper balance.
I am using G-60 dual piston calipers.

I used the shims because a replacement set of shoes were only making contact on the leading 1/4" of the shoe.. and this with about 1500 miles of wear in.. I adjusted and adjusted again.. minimal improvement. Maybe 1/2". Near useless. I could see obvious wear.
I have installed dozens of shoes in varying drum brakes over the years. I had never had this amount of slop in a fit.

The shims angled the shoe a bit further out and wear, after several thousand miles more, is drawn further down the pad face of the.

Parking brake holds much better, too. Which is kinda important on the streets of SF


I did not stop there.. Since the shims, I also swapped out the Vanagon brake cylinders for a slightly higher volume set from a VW LT. The performance change with new cylinder is more difficult to quantify. More volume should equal more pressure with the bigger bore. Jury is out for me on that one.. but others I know have been pretty happy with that mod.
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"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
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danfromsyr wrote:
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All later model vehicles brakes --makes no difference who manufactures them, are floater's.
All of the early vehicle shoes were fixed, your right on the money here Chris.

Regardless of a floating shoe or a fixed shoe, your still looking at an adjustment proceedure to keep the gap between the shoes & the drums to a minimum--so the cylinder pins don't have a mile to move to get the shoes to the drum.
OK-that's basic brake 101, and I assume it's all understood.

Now, this lower shoe pivot point shim is really doing nothing but moving the rocker pins out--when the shoes are first installed--nothing else.
Ok, so my point here is;
Your still going to have to adjust the brakes when the pedal gets spongey, when the rear brakes adjuster's aren't working, a guy should match the surface of the new shoes to the new drums prior to installation, the shoes are still going to wear, the drums are still going to wear--just as they have always done.
So, what is the advantage of shoving the shoes farther into the drums from the get go, when everthing is going to be the same, act the same, wear the same, --there is no advantage here at all.
EXCEPT-when the drums are so worn , and at the end of their cutting limits, and a guy wants to run on the edge, and have thin drums.
That's it--that's all.
Changing the lower pivot angle a 16th or 8th isn't going to do anything but assist in making the shoes slam into the drums a hair faster--nothing worth measuring, and help the shoes wear out faster.

The best possible update to your rear brakes is to cut the shoes, or tweak them a hair to assure there is no hight or low spots on initial installation, so they wear into the drums properly.

Whatever, or wherever the lower pivot point is at will do absolutley nothing in causing the rear drum brakes to stop the Van any better.
It's still a self adjusting floating drum brake, and if the adjuster isn't working, your still going to have to adjust them up regadless where the lower shoe pivot is.

Is this pretty simple or what?
I can't think of any other way of putting it so this concept gets absorbed.
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Last edited by Terry Kay on Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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