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aeromech
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Joined: January 24, 2006
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Location: San Diego, California
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 Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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I used this one: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&am...0081,d.cGU
It says use a 9.1mm drill. The one I used was slightly smaller but seemed like it didn't leave enough for the threads. Just saying this to help out the next guy.
Looks like my drill works out to be 9.128125mm which is slightly larger than the chart. I thought it was smaller but was using a cheap digital caliper.
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germansupplyscott
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Joined: May 22, 2004
Posts: 7093
Location: toronto
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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not sure who made that chart but it's wrong. thread diameter minus pitch, that's all you need to remember for sizing metric tap holes. it's a universal rule of metric threads.
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aeromech
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Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16961
Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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Be sure to use a little anti-seize on the sensor threads
I did but later thought that maybe I should have used some of my conductive grease I use on electrical connections.
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Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
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aeromech
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16961
Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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Good to know Scott, thanks
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Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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rustybutterknife
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Joined: June 06, 2003
Posts: 488
Location: Georgetown, IN
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| aeromech wrote: |
I used this one: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&am...0081,d.cGU
It says use a 9.1mm drill. The one I used was slightly smaller but seemed like it didn't leave enough for the threads. Just saying this to help out the next guy.
Looks like my drill works out to be 9.128125mm which is slightly larger than the chart. I thought it was smaller but was using a cheap digital caliper. |
also, twist drills in a handheld drill, no matter how skilled and steady the operator, always add at least a few thousandths of an inch to the hole size. while it may not seem like much:
23/64 (std. decimal) 0.359375
9mm (std. decimal) 0.354330709
you're already 5 thousandths oversize, maybe add another 5 for the nature of drilling and...
looks good though. excellent work for sure. not knocking on you in any way. it's just the nature of the materials.
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I almost always use a slightly larger drill bit than what is recommended to make the tapping process easier. All you need is something like 70% of the full depth of the thread to get close to 100% strength, so being a few thousandth over is no big deal. |
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Tcash
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Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| aeromech wrote: |
Be sure to use a little anti-seize on the sensor threads
I did but later thought that maybe I should have used some of my conductive grease I use on electrical connections.
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Thanks for posting this product.
I go to a lot of places and see a lot of products and tools. I have not seen this product. It is a major item. I have heard a couple of clients speak of a product like this but have not seen a brand until now.
In most cases I could also not get my clients to be "clear" about the type lubricant they are using.
Too many.....express the product they are using as an electrically "insulating" grease or lubricant.......which is a DIELECTRIC......and which is wrong for certain uses.
I will say this for the thousandth time...because many people make this mistake.
Any DIELECTRIC grease, oil, coating covering etc.......is NON-CONDUCTIVE. Most greases and oils are dielectric to some extent. This means they do not conduct electricity.
People get the wrong idea from watching LARGE connections like marine power connections and battery connections get slathered with grease. In those cases the conductors are massive in surface area and either bolted together or have high,spring tension that is capable of pushing grease out of the way enough to make some serious surface contact. Then the grease around the outside.....keeps corrosive materials, oxygen and salt water off of them.
I see people using grease or bulb grease or sparkplug dielectric grease on small gauge terminals and fuel injection terminals.....which is the totally WRONG thing to do. These terminals do not have enough surface area or spring tension to RELIABLY make connection all the time.....through a grease that is NON-CONDUCTIVE.
In items like fuel injection components....which are resistance and millivolt sensitive.....using a dielectric grease can and usually eventually does.....create an intermittent contact and ground.
A product like this Sanchem stuff.....is perfect. You can use it for protecting from corrosive elements to keep oxidization down on connectors ...and actually not negatively affect connectivity.
Also....as far as drilling the hole. Take a look in Mcmaster Carr.....the best drill bits I have found for hand drilling in aluminum is first.....what is called a "fast twist" or fast helix drill bit. They have about twice as many flutes. They cut more accurately and give a machined quality bore surface.
Next....look for the high accuracy bits they sell. They have a different flute design that is designed to give more alignment support on bore walls.
So you are looking for a high accuracy drill bit with a fast twist flute pattern. I will see if I can post a part # later. You may not find this in metric....so I will post the closest decimal or number drill bit. Ray |
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surfbus23
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Joined: July 21, 2016
Posts: 383
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| aeromech wrote: |
It didn't seem like the threads cut deep enough
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I need to add this sensor to my 72 converted to FI and had a couple of newbie questions.
[list]Does this hole go all the way through? What exactly are we looking at? Is that a hole into the combustion chamber?
If yes, doesn't this risk getting metal shards into the engine?
What does a blind hole mean?[/list=] |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Relocating Temp. Sensor, TS2, TSII |
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| The hole is just a thermal connection to the head nothing more. It doesn't go through on FI engines, but did go into the exhaust port on carbureted engines with an air injection pump. Yours is the FI style. |
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surfbus23
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Joined: July 21, 2016
Posts: 383
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:22 am Post subject: Re: Relocating Temp. Sensor, TS2, TSII |
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| Thanks Wildthings. Went and looked closer at my engine and realized the shadow on aeromech's photo was throwing me off. Looks much more doable now. |
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Tram
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Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Relocating Temp. Sensor, TS2, TSII |
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I'm going to be a killjoy and say the factory put it where they put it for a reason. Put it anywhere else and it'll read differently due to thermodynamics. For one thing, heat rises. For another, thicker parts of the castings dissipate heat differently than thinner parts. All this is factored into the location of TS2.
On the Type 3, the A/B FI systems located TS2 towards the bottom of the cylinder head, while C/D/E systems were on top. Replacement heads all had the sensor up top, which resulted in a TSB being issued telling you that you'd need to either adjust the manifold pressure sensor on an A system or add a resistor (I forget the ohm value) inline on your relocated TS2 on the B system with the preset sealed MAP adjustment to compensate running too lean with the top mounted sensor on these systems.
At least on your Bay AFC system you can adjust your air flow meter with an exhaust sniffer, but how many of you have these?
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furgo
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: Relocating Temp. Sensor, TS2, TSII |
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What if the TS2 broke inside the thread and someone hadn't managed to take it out yet, nor had he the time or resources to extract it or install it in an alternative location until in a few weeks time? What if he already had a replacement sensor and was wondering if there is an easy way to attach it temporarily somewhere to get some meaningful reading until a proper fix is done?
In other words, any ideas on how to perhaps attach the sensor to the case/head surface as a temporary workaround until it finds back a proper new (or old) home?
Yes, I do wish the first sentence had started with "hypothetically speaking..."
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: Relocating Temp. Sensor, TS2, TSII |
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| The hardest part about installing the TSII sensor next to the #4 intake runner is cutting the tin out of the way, but a 9/16 hole saw will make fast easy work of this. Drilling out the hole and tapping it shouldn't take more than 30 minutes if someone is handy at all with tools, so the entire job should take less than an hour. If you do the #2 cylinder instead of #4 then you have to remove the air cleaner, again not a big deal. |
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51128
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: Relocating Temp. Sensor, TS2, TSII |
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| furgo wrote: |
What if the TS2 broke inside the thread and someone hadn't managed to take it out yet, nor had he the time or resources to extract it or install it in an alternative location until in a few weeks time? What if he already had a replacement sensor and was wondering if there is an easy way to attach it temporarily somewhere to get some meaningful reading until a proper fix is done?
In other words, any ideas on how to perhaps attach the sensor to the case/head surface as a temporary workaround until it finds back a proper new (or old) home?
Yes, I do wish the first sentence had started with "hypothetically speaking..." |
Hypothetically for a roadside fix I'd hit the FLAPS for a M10X1.0 pipe fitting and a pair of disposable Chinese visegrips, then I'd screw the sensor into the fitting and clamp it to the side of a fin underneath (not too close to the exhaust though).
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KentABQ 
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Joined: September 11, 2016
Posts: 2406
Location: Albuquerque NM
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: Relocating Temp. Sensor, TS2, TSII |
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| furgo wrote: |
What if the TS2 broke inside the thread and someone hadn't managed to take it out yet, nor had he the time or resources to extract it or install it in an alternative location until in a few weeks time? What if he already had a replacement sensor and was wondering if there is an easy way to attach it temporarily somewhere to get some meaningful reading until a proper fix is done?
In other words, any ideas on how to perhaps attach the sensor to the case/head surface as a temporary workaround until it finds back a proper new (or old) home?
Yes, I do wish the first sentence had started with "hypothetically speaking..." |
Ummmmm.... I'm not saying I've done this  ...or that it's still like this in my engine  ... but here's a possible workaround:
My engine has ports into the exhaust manifold from the old smog pump. So there are four holes in the heads, although the ports have been plugged down inside.
If one wanted to, you could take a TSII, and wrap a layer of thick aluminum foil (like from a take-out container. It needs to be thicker than plain Reynolds Wrap.)
Then one could, hypothetically, press it into one of the exhaust ports, wire it in place to keep it from popping out, and hook it up. It might even last, oh, say, three or four months before the aluminum strip needs to be replaced.
And one could probably do this for several months if one was too lazy to tap the engine tin hole, since it functions alright as is. 
Pure speculation, ya unnerstan...
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Relocating Temp. Sensor, TS2, TSII |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| furgo wrote: |
What if the TS2 broke inside the thread and someone hadn't managed to take it out yet, nor had he the time or resources to extract it or install it in an alternative location until in a few weeks time? What if he already had a replacement sensor and was wondering if there is an easy way to attach it temporarily somewhere to get some meaningful reading until a proper fix is done?
In other words, any ideas on how to perhaps attach the sensor to the case/head surface as a temporary workaround until it finds back a proper new (or old) home?
Yes, I do wish the first sentence had started with "hypothetically speaking..." |
Hypothetically for a roadside fix I'd hit the FLAPS for a M10X1.0 pipe fitting and a pair of disposable Chinese visegrips, then I'd screw the sensor into the fitting and clamp it to the side of a fin underneath (not too close to the exhaust though). |
A 50-100 ohm resister with a couple is spade terminal will be a good substitute for a TSII sender on a hot engine. You can also just ground the wire from the ECU that goes to the sender though the engine may run a bit lean if you do this. On my 411 I have a wire attached to the block on one end with a spade on the other as a drive home device in case my TSII sender should fail. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:58 pm Post subject: Re: Relocating Temp. Sensor, TS2, TSII |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
| furgo wrote: |
What if the TS2 broke inside the thread and someone hadn't managed to take it out yet, nor had he the time or resources to extract it or install it in an alternative location until in a few weeks time? What if he already had a replacement sensor and was wondering if there is an easy way to attach it temporarily somewhere to get some meaningful reading until a proper fix is done?
In other words, any ideas on how to perhaps attach the sensor to the case/head surface as a temporary workaround until it finds back a proper new (or old) home?
Yes, I do wish the first sentence had started with "hypothetically speaking..." |
Hypothetically for a roadside fix I'd hit the FLAPS for a M10X1.0 pipe fitting and a pair of disposable Chinese visegrips, then I'd screw the sensor into the fitting and clamp it to the side of a fin underneath (not too close to the exhaust though). |
A 50-100 ohm resister with a couple is spade terminal will be a good substitute for a TSII sender on a hot engine. You can also just ground the wire from the ECU that goes to the sender though the engine may run a bit lean if you do this. On my 411 I have a wire attached to the block on one end with a spade on the other as a drive home device in case my TSII sender should fail. |
Exactly correct.
A 125 ohm resistor is exactly what I use for tuning fuel mixture. Once the engine is warmed up fully....putting in a fixed resistor while you ard tuning fuel mixture (the AFM on L-jet and the MPS on D-jet).....keeps the stopping and starting from driving and tuning....from causing changes not related to your AFM adjustment.
Once the engine is fully warmed up.....the TS2 reading changes cirtually not at all. The ECU will not know the difference in a fixed resistor and the TS2.
While this can cause you an issue staryong in cold weather.....once you do get it started and warmed up a fixed resistor is a great get you off the side of the road substitute. Ray |
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furgo
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Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:56 am Post subject: Re: Relocating Temp. Sensor, TS2, TSII |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| Hypothetically for a roadside fix I'd hit the FLAPS for a M10X1.0 pipe fitting and a pair of disposable Chinese visegrips, then I'd screw the sensor into the fitting and clamp it to the side of a fin underneath (not too close to the exhaust though). |
Excellent, that's what I was (hypothetically  ) looking for, thanks!
| KentPS wrote: |
Ummmmm.... I'm not saying I've done this ...or that it's still like this in my engine ... but here's a possible workaround:
My engine has ports into the exhaust manifold from the old smog pump. So there are four holes in the heads, although the ports have been plugged down inside.
If one wanted to, you could take a TSII, and wrap a layer of thick aluminum foil (like from a take-out container. It needs to be thicker than plain Reynolds Wrap.)
Then one could, hypothetically, press it into one of the exhaust ports, wire it in place to keep it from popping out, and hook it up. It might even last, oh, say, three or four months before the aluminum strip needs to be replaced.
And one could probably do this for several months if one was too lazy to tap the engine tin hole, since it functions alright as is.
Pure speculation, ya unnerstan... |
Of course, I'll pretend I've not heard it  . Unfortunately I don't have the extra exhaust ports, but good roadside fix for those who have them.
| Wildthings wrote: |
| A 50-100 ohm resister with a couple is spade terminal will be a good substitute for a TSII sender on a hot engine. You can also just ground the wire from the ECU that goes to the sender though the engine may run a bit lean if you do this. On my 411 I have a wire attached to the block on one end with a spade on the other as a drive home device in case my TSII sender should fail. |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
A 125 ohm resistor is exactly what I use for tuning fuel mixture. Once the engine is warmed up fully....putting in a fixed resistor while you ard tuning fuel mixture (the AFM on L-jet and the MPS on D-jet).....keeps the stopping and starting from driving and tuning....from causing changes not related to your AFM adjustment.
Once the engine is fully warmed up.....the TS2 reading changes cirtually not at all. The ECU will not know the difference in a fixed resistor and the TS2.
While this can cause you an issue staryong in cold weather.....once you do get it started and warmed up a fixed resistor is a great get you off the side of the road substitute. Ray |
Also good advice, but I'm all set for the sensor. A while ago I put together a TS2 bypass with a potentiometer to replace my broken sensor:
I've seen others in the forum with a similar setup. Although I seem to remember Ray mentioning he was doing it by switching discrete resistors.
My intention is to go back to the original sensor though (which is sitting on my desk). As a matter of personal preference, I'm not too fond of having an extra control to tweak at startup or while driving, that's why. It might make sense if I had an O2 sensor to have at least some visual feedback of the adjustment. But if I've got it permanently installed as it is now, I'm most likely to forget it's there at some point, and either run super rich or super lean.
So for now, I'll try busdaddy's suggestion as a temporary swap to attach the sensor for testing purposes until I manage to either remove the broken sensor next to cyl #3, or tap a new thread on the hole next to cyl #4, as discussed on this excellent thread.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Relocating Temp. Sensor, TS2, TSII |
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Yes.....I have done the potentiometer and the discrete resistor panel. Both work and have their merits and issues. There are lots or ways to work this part...and work around it.
In reality neither L-jet or D-jet require....or noticeably respond to...... an exact resistance number from second to second or minute to minute. About 20 ohms when you are at the bottom of the scale fully warmed up and about 100-200 ohms at the top of the scale when stone cold is all the ECU's have the resolution to make meaningful and noticable change to.
For example if you are stone cold at 2500 0hms.....2300 makes little difference especiqlly since a fair amount of what the engine is looking for for initial start is going to be provided by the CSV.
As the engine and heads warm and can atomize fuel better....it gets increasingly more responsive to smaller increments through the midrange. And....each engine will be different depending on baseline fuel mixture.
In the top of the TS2 scale in coldest weather you can make 200 ohm jumps until it hots about 1500 -1800 ohms (your results will vary on your engine)....and then it quickly jumps to 100 0hm sensitive and gets lower from there. This is from the engine being able to use the fuel more efficiently as it starts spraying into a hotter port as the heads warm up.
In reality I have found that you could run with about 7 discrete/specific 0hm ranges....and
Just click through them with a knob control and never feel the difference. One of the drawbacks of that is that you will need a summer range and a winter range.
And as Tram mentioned on Friday....he is actually right to an large extent. Where the TS2 sits in the aifflow....or lack thereof.....while it will generally not effect the final fully warmed up target resistance (unless you really get it out in the airflow like on the ends of the head fins of with an extender like the factory used).....it WILL affect the timing of how fast or slow it warms up and cools down when you make stops....and can make it "peaky" in stop and go traffic.
Ray |
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