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'Let's Go! Scotland-Croatia and onwards in our Kombi!'
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mcdonaldneal
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 2:42 am    Post subject: Re: 'Let's Go! Scotland-Croatia and onwards in our Kombi!' Reply with quote

I also inspected the joints, and double checked the orientation of the parts and how to assemble them. I figured this was easier clean, in the kitchen, with a white Persian cat, than when they are all coated in black moly grease Shocked !
Thinking about orientation, the quote below helps a bit. My inner races don't have an obvious difference in bevel size, so I'm treating them as reversible. I'll try to install them the same as before though, apart from the one that was backwards Evil or Very Mad!
Jeffrey Lee wrote:


Beyond simple memorization of the correct orientations, it’s helpful to know the reasons behind them:

1. The ball cage is chamfered on the inboard side in order to provide additional clearance when the joint operates at extreme angles, to prevent the cage from rubbing/interfering with the axle shaft.

2. The splined hole in the center of the ’star’ hub is chamfered on the inboard side in order to facilitate easy insertion/fitting of the axle shaft, while the outboard side is flat in order to provide a solid seat for the snap ring.


First, the joints are all Lobro, with dates of 1987/88/89, so seem to have been replaced when the bus was ten years old (whether that was necessary or not!)

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Pic below shows the difference in chamfer/bevel of the cage. Narrower and chamfered on the left, broader on the right...

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The worst looking joint is this one below. A bit rusty, with slight pitting of the grooves. It sounds as though this is acceptable. The balls (on the left) are duller than the good ones, but not at all pitted.

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mcdonaldneal
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 2:52 am    Post subject: Re: 'Let's Go! Scotland-Croatia and onwards in our Kombi!' Reply with quote

Practice assembly.
1. Place outer race on table, with single line downwards. Keep a closely paired set of grooves on the left, and a widely paired set of grooves on the left of the inner race.
2. Insert balls, top and bottom.

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3. Insert the inner race. It goes in easily if you dive the left hand edge of the inner race in first, almost vertical, and the lower ball, and then rotate into place.

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With the cage slightly tilted, insert the upper and lower balls and push the upper balls down, into the widely spaced grooves.
When it's complete, double check that nothing has flipped around. Inscribed line at the bottom, large gaps facing small gaps and cage bevel uppermost.

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 3:59 am    Post subject: Re: 'Let's Go! Scotland-Croatia and onwards in our Kombi!' Reply with quote

Yes, no harm in giving the NOS boots a try and see how they go on. If they fail, this is a procedure to become proficient in in any case, and it won't be anywhere as daunting the second time around (and you will only have to remove one CV the second time, as both boots slide down the axle shaft).

There are many factors why the rubber fails, not just mileage, the affect of ozone on rubbers has been discussed on this website at length, so experiences vary depending on the environment:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_cracking

Another tip is as well as the two jack stands holding the rear of your bus off the ground (and I always leave the jack in place, just easing it off so the beam is supported by the stands, but the jack is there ready as a belt and braces approach for increased safety when under there), is to have a third stand to hand.

Place it in line halfway between both flanges, and level it horizontal with the flange on the wheel. It acts as a "third hand" (saves an aching arm as well), so you can balance the drive shaft on it, connect the outer CV to the wheel flange, then simply lift and connect to the inner CV to the other flange on the gearbox. It also helps avoid the CVs twisting while you reinstate them, stopping the ball bearings inadvertently spilling out and rolling off - ask me how I know Embarassed
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 4:41 am    Post subject: Re: 'Let's Go! Scotland-Croatia and onwards in our Kombi!' Reply with quote

Hey Phil,

If it was me, I'd remove that rust inside that one CV joint. A dremel with a wire wheel will remove it as would a mild acid/water solution. I'd want the joint as smooth as possible inside there before reassembly.
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mcdonaldneal
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 4:48 am    Post subject: Re: 'Let's Go! Scotland-Croatia and onwards in our Kombi!' Reply with quote

wcfvw69 wrote:
Hey Phil,

If it was me, I'd remove that rust inside that one CV joint. A dremel with a wire wheel will remove it as would a mild acid/water solution. I'd want the joint as smooth as possible inside there before reassembly.


Good point Bill, but sadly, too late! I have reassembled that joint now. I had hoped to rotate the joint positions for wear but, the axle end that was so hard to remove the joint from was very resistant to its 'new' joint, so I reverted to all the original locations.
With the rust, I was a little nervous of abrading the bearing surfaces, but I can see it would have been better. Never mind!
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 6:26 am    Post subject: Re: 'Let's Go! Scotland-Croatia and onwards in our Kombi!' Reply with quote

Getting there Confused .
Three of the cv joints went on reasonably easily. The one that had been fitted backwards was murder. I ended up filing the splines, heating the inner race with a blowtorch, placing it with just the cage on and battering the bejeesus out of it.
I dare say I'll regret that if it ever needs to be removed, but when that happens I'll find someone with a press Wink .

Filling the joints with grease was relatively pleasurable in comparison, and I took care to 'clock' the joints, which was something I was unaware of until this morning Very Happy ! (Actually, unless you're off-roading, almost certainly unnecessary Wink )

Clocking CV joints

edit: for correct 'clocking' link!

Two axles, waiting for the proper bolts to arrive...

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[/b]
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 6:57 am    Post subject: Re: 'Let's Go! Scotland-Croatia and onwards in our Kombi!' Reply with quote

Crap, I'm too late. I was going to tell you to probably not use the NOS boots... I used a pair on my bus. One is perfectly fine. The other is already replaced after about 500 miles... It was cracked everywhere, just disintegrating before my eyes. Anyways, keep a close eye on them over the next year. Monthly checks?
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 7:26 am    Post subject: Re: 'Let's Go! Scotland-Croatia and onwards in our Kombi!' Reply with quote

Those joints will be fine on a stock suspension. I have driven much, much worse for X0,000 miles, (X non-trivial)
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: 'Let's Go! Scotland-Croatia and onwards in our Kombi!' Reply with quote

This whole boot situation is strange to me. I'm glad Phil installed the NOS boots. Maybe they were made with the good rubber from back in the day. My 69 bug I've had for 20 years. It has what I'm certain are the original CV joint boots on it. They are still perfect with no dry or cracking.

It's hard to believe that technology has gone backwards and that good quality rubber is so much more expensive to use while manufacturing these new boots.
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 11:09 am    Post subject: Re: 'Let's Go! Scotland-Croatia and onwards in our Kombi!' Reply with quote

I did not know that was called clocking, but yes absolutely the easiest way to tell if you reassembled the CV correctly isn't if you can pull on the outer race and it will move out and swivel. If it barely moves and has difficulty swiveling, then it was assembeled one slot off kilter.

Don't blame technology for poor rubber. Blame profiteering!
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 11:53 am    Post subject: Re: 'Let's Go! Scotland-Croatia and onwards in our Kombi!' Reply with quote

Well.
I'm am very glad I have finished that job!
For any relative novice looking to tackle this full CV joint service, it took me a pretty full three days. Single handed, and slightly prolonged by one joint that was jammed on back to front and needed me to visit a friend. I also did a rear brake shoe and handbrake adjustment for the first time. So, it is not a quick and easy job.
The first pic is the rubbish bin, full of gloves, towels, grease and the rest of the rubbish from the job...
By the way, while I was refitting the axle assemblies, I took off a brake drum and checked the internal diameter as a couple of folk had spotted that they might be worn. It was within wear tolerance, so I'm good for a while Very Happy !
The last task was a pleasant one; a test drive! All good Cool!

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I scrubbed up and painted the two old spare boots and discovered that one is branded Löbro. Good to know!
A replacement Cv joint, boot, splined bolts, washer and circlip arrived from JustKampers today, along with 24 German splined bolts which I used for the reinstallation.
The joint is Löbro/GKN and is stamped 'Germany', so I think I will keep it as a good quality spare in case of boot or joint failure. Boot failure seems a likelihood in the near future, judging by others' comments.
Pretty tired, but really happy that it's all been done before our camping trip to Europe in two weeks time!!!! Very Happy

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 12:05 pm    Post subject: Re: 'Let's Go! Scotland-Croatia and onwards in our Kombi!' Reply with quote

Looks great! Cool

There is some controversy over applying the clamp band on the small end of the boot. I used to do that, but the first time I saw one of my boots kind of twisted up after a week, I cut the band. It is my opinion that the snugness of the small end on that drive shaft does not warrant the band, but I also live in a Mediterranean climate and rarely drive though creeks or rivers.

Don't forget to check your torque on the bolts after 100 miles or so... Shocked
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 2:17 pm    Post subject: Re: 'Let's Go! Scotland-Croatia and onwards in our Kombi!' Reply with quote

Wasted youth wrote:
Looks great! Cool

There is some controversy over applying the clamp band on the small end of the boot. I used to do that, but the first time I saw one of my boots kind of twisted up after a week, I cut the band. It is my opinion that the snugness of the small end on that drive shaft does not warrant the band, but I also live in a Mediterranean climate and rarely drive though creeks or rivers.

Don't forget to check your torque on the bolts after 100 miles or so... Shocked


Good call, I was planning to retorque soon.
I agree about the clamps. Certainly, my boots were a very snug fit, even after I warmed them in a (low) oven Shocked ! I smeared some ordinary grease on the cuff, and I was going to leave it a while to settle in, and then apply the clamps lightly, to still allow for some movement.

Incidentally, I went through my receipts. I had one new CV boot in 2013, but nothing else in the last 17years! I'll bet the Löbro boot was put on at the same time as the joints, ie around 1990, 100,000 miles ago Shocked . Pretty good going if that is true?!
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 'Let's Go! Scotland-Croatia and onwards in our Kombi!' Reply with quote

Looks great! 👍

I'm for the clamps on the axles, but I'm usually disagreed with around here. Wink
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 12:32 am    Post subject: Re: 'Let's Go! Scotland-Croatia and onwards in our Kombi!' Reply with quote

Wasted youth wrote:
I did not know that was called clocking, but yes absolutely the easiest way to tell if you reassembled the CV correctly isn't if you can pull on the outer race and it will move out and swivel. If it barely moves and has difficulty swiveling, then it was assembeled one slot off kilter.

Don't blame technology for poor rubber. Blame profiteering!


I've realised I linked to the wrong page for 'clocking'!
I'm convinced it's not important, but I meant the process of making sure the CV joints at either end of the axle are lined up with each other. It could only possibly matter at the absolute extreme of movement, but here's the proper link! It's from the off-road forum.

Proper 'clocking' link
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 7:32 am    Post subject: Re: 'Let's Go! Scotland-Croatia and onwards in our Kombi!' Reply with quote

mcdonaldneal wrote:
Wasted youth wrote:
I did not know that was called clocking, but yes absolutely the easiest way to tell if you reassembled the CV correctly isn't if you can pull on the outer race and it will move out and swivel. If it barely moves and has difficulty swiveling, then it was assembeled one slot off kilter.

Don't blame technology for poor rubber. Blame profiteering!


I've realised I linked to the wrong page for 'clocking'!
I'm convinced it's not important, but I meant the process of making sure the CV joints at either end of the axle are lined up with each other. It could only possibly matter at the absolute extreme of movement, but here's the proper link! It's from the off-road forum.

Proper 'clocking' link


That is a good read. I had not thought of that, I wonder how mine are installed... hmm
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 7:33 am    Post subject: Re: 'Let's Go! Scotland-Croatia and onwards in our Kombi!' Reply with quote

Egads....
That site also recommends ANNUAL removal and inspection of the CVs.

After that first time I did mine, I'm hoping to never have to do them again. Buuuuuut I guess I could if I had to. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 7:55 am    Post subject: Re: 'Let's Go! Scotland-Croatia and onwards in our Kombi!' Reply with quote

KentPS wrote:
Egads....
That site also recommends ANNUAL removal and inspection of the CVs.

After that first time I did mine, I'm hoping to never have to do them again. Buuuuuut I guess I could if I had to. Rolling Eyes


Don't worry. The service interval to repack the CV joints is 25k miles. Very Happy

Annual inspection of the CV joints, that funny! All of us bus owners who've bought these used VW's have seen how well the previous owners did with completing the required preventative maintenance.. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 4:44 am    Post subject: Re: 'Let's Go! Scotland-Croatia and onwards in our Kombi!' Reply with quote

Thanks for the clocking link. I am supposed to be a mechanic, but had no idea the two opposite sides should be aligned a certain way. That's now on my to do list, especially as i like to push the baywindow's off-road limits sometimes.
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 4:39 am    Post subject: Re: 'Let's Go! Scotland-Croatia and onwards in our Kombi!' Reply with quote

Ok, now for something more exciting than the mechanical work!

We are heading off tomorrow for a week's holiday in the Netherlands Very Happy Cool !
There is a two hour drive down, across the English border to Newcastle, where we catch an overnight ferry to IJmuiden near Amsterdam. From there it's a short drive to where the VW Bus Club of the Netherlands is having a meeting over the weekend. After that, we will take the tandem and the cat to the North Dutch coast, and spend the rest of the week touring about before the ferry home.

Today I have time for some pre-trip prep.
First, I had been meaning to safety wire the fuel lines to the carbs. I haven't done this before, but a little online research and a few practice goes produced a safety wire between the carb screw (between the head of the screw and the washer) and the hose clamp.

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Then I found the roof rack and the side tent, and chucked them all up top. We use the tent for storage when camping, and for the portable toilet.
Last thing for now was to put a metal cap on the ugly, frayed amend of the thermostat/flapping cable. It's been bugging me for ages!

I'll keep posting while I prepare, and during the trip.

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