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'69 Westy finally getting the rehab it needs...
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yugo42
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Location: Rochester, NY
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:39 pm    Post subject: '69 Westy finally getting the rehab it needs... Reply with quote

Well, after creeping around this site for years now and getting inspiration from fantastic resto threads (Thrasher22, Bradgt74, ataneo come to mind as some who jumped in feet-first!), I have decided to dig in myself! I'm hoping that actually recording this process somewhere will let me come back and remember what the hell I did, and remind me of any stupid mistakes I make along the way. So, who is this bus you may ask?

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I got this fella in a trade with another Samba member for a '71 Squareback, which I got in a series of previous trades that originally started with an Empi carb kit. He will get a name at some point, but up to now has just been known as "the bus". Knowing I had no resources to do the bodywork, I immediately encased all the rot I could see in POR-15, and spraybombed over the top. There, I fixed it! After some rewiring and brake repairs, off we went.

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I've kept it up in good mechanical shape, but after 6 wonderful seasons of camping the rust was winning the war. So into the garage we went this winter.
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yugo42
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are some of the more offensive areas:
Driver's side rocker:
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Under my feet:
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The nose of an experienced boxer (it came with a tire loosely on it, which I promptly removed):
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Passenger rocker:
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Passenger dogleg:
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...and the list goes on. How depressing, right?

So, first thing's first: out comes the camping interior. Little of the interior was really bolted in when I got it (the furniture is mostly from a '73-ish Westy), so removal was not too bad. I knew most of the attachment points because I put them in.
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Not gonna be sorry to get rid of this nasty floor. I kept it as a template, but the wood is trashed with rot.

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Hey, the floor sheet metal isn't as bad as I expected! I knew it would be crap at the edges, but most of the middle is good to go.
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yugo42
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So after letting that first effort age for a few months like a fine wine, I got back to it. After many searches I could not find many instances where anyone removed the belly pans from their bus to get a look underneath. Impatient to see what lurked under the floor, and feeling like my first cut should be someplace out of view, I decided to chop out the passenger side pan. The pan itself was solid, except near the front wheel well.
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Well, out ya come anyway.
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Hooray! The first cut is the hardest, I assume. I hate to cut up one of the few parts you can't get repops of, but I can fudge some new edges up and nobody will be the wiser. There are so many spot welds on these things that I expect one would need to own a drill bit factory to make it worth your while to drill them all out.

So let's see what we are dealing with under there...

Hey, not too shabby in this corner!
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The front end is less encouraging:
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yugo42
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot to mention the iron oxide avalanche that occurred when I dropped that belly pan. My van was literally becoming a rust bucket:
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So this is what the seam between the floor and the passenger seat bulkhead looks like:
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And this is the rear of the front passenger wheel well:
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Why doesn't the rust go through? And why did VW use tiny screws and silicone RTV to hold factory sheetmetal together? Unless...uh oh...
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Now it makes sense!
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That top hat section turned out to be solid on the back side, and completely gone on the front side. Since the floor was pretty chewed up in that area, I figured I would cut it back to ease replacement of that section and the jacking point.
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I also started knocking back the bondo party going on near the front and rear wheel wells. It wasn't as thick as I thought, luckily. I forgot to upload an "after" shot, but you can see all the telltale signs above the rust hole:
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Time to get some serious metal on order!
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yugo42
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finally got around to doing the M plate!
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a good book for metal repair.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0857332457/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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yugo42
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the recommendation, Tcash! It looks pretty thorough from the preview photos. I will definitely check it out.
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yugo42
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:57 am    Post subject: Re: '69 Westy finally getting the rehab it needs... Reply with quote

Well it's been a couple of months (plus or minus 6 years) since I last posted in this thread. Yes, I am a statistic in the thousands of well-meaning Bus owners whose intentions greatly outpace their dedication. After the last post, I ordered and received some nice, sturdy UK metal from JustKampers to patch up the rockers and structure under the sliding door.

Then...I froze. Afraid to cut too much metal out, afraid my cracked and shifted garage floor would cause me to tweak the structure, afraid I didn't have enough clamps and tools, waah waah waah. Then I just got distracted by life and other projects. This was my garage a few months after my last post:

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So enter Covid-19, and the evaporation of most social obligations meant I could get down to business on a bunch of long-dusty projects! I restored that '50 Kelvinator on the right side of the photo and did a bunch of work to the old '71 Sears in the background. I yanked the Bus into the sunlight for the first time in 6 years in order to install a man door in my garage so I could finally (somewhat) heat the place. After some unfortunate time in the snow, I used the aforementioned tractor to drag her back inside, shovel off the roof snow, and get back to work.

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I am taking a different approach this time around, trying to learn from past mistakes. I am planning on starting up front instead, with the working theory being that I can repair some rusty areas and build up confidence with my sheet metal work in an area that has less effect on the overall structural integrity of the vehicle. I am still stripping things out of the way to assess what needs to go but I am looking forward to digging back in!
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outcaststudios
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:56 am    Post subject: Re: '69 Westy finally getting the rehab it needs... Reply with quote

i have the same bus. i did the inner and outer skins on it about ten years ago, and theyre holding up. glad to see you got back on it.
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'88Doka JX td
'69 westy
(rip)couple bugs
(rip)three type III"s
(rip) '81 vanagon
a bunch of french stuff,and 9 motorcycles.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2573791
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yugo42
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:41 am    Post subject: Re: '69 Westy finally getting the rehab it needs... Reply with quote

Thanks outcast! It feels good to be making progress on this thing again.

Did you put a new nose on yours? Mine is bad at the windshield lip and the bottom near the bumper. The middle is solid, but dents and a couple rusty patches near the headlights are making me wonder if I'm better off with a full nose job rather than trying too hard to save OG metal. I have a little more uncovering and poking to do before I decide what to order.
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cmonSTART
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:15 pm    Post subject: Re: '69 Westy finally getting the rehab it needs... Reply with quote

Good for you! That's an ambitious project - good luck with it!

I grew up a bit west of you in Orleans county.
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outcaststudios
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: '69 Westy finally getting the rehab it needs... Reply with quote

i did not have to do the nose clip on my bus in fact overall i was pretty lucky i just had the standard rocker rot and some fender rash. otherwise nothing too bad. i recommend storing it inside if you can! there are many nice options today for front clips , the guys in England make some nice pieces that fit well...
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'88Doka JX td
'69 westy
(rip)couple bugs
(rip)three type III"s
(rip) '81 vanagon
a bunch of french stuff,and 9 motorcycles.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2573791
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Angus II
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:04 pm    Post subject: Re: '69 Westy finally getting the rehab it needs... Reply with quote

cmonSTART wrote:
Good for you! That's an ambitious project - good luck with it!


Hello,
"Ambitious project"? hell you say.
That must be the PC term for "Are you fucking crazy"... What you guys in the rust belt and east coast will do to slow down a bleed out.
Don't get me wrong. I've repaired enough coastal rust back in the day, to realize it always comes back no matter what you do.. Yet, I was getting paid for those repairs.
But, I will hand it too you guys though for the effort and the dream of keeping it alive. JMHO.
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yugo42
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:55 am    Post subject: Re: '69 Westy finally getting the rehab it needs... Reply with quote

cmonSTART wrote:
Good for you! That's an ambitious project - good luck with it!

I grew up a bit west of you in Orleans county.

Great to see current or former locals on here!

Angus II wrote:
"Ambitious project"? hell you say.
That must be the PC term for "Are you fucking crazy"


Yep, both takes are accurate - it's ambitious and definitely crazy! I have read enough tough love posts on here to know this is not a great starting point since I have to touch nearly every panel and many other major parts. I have ping ponged several times over the years between doing the bodywork and trying to buy my way into something more solid, but prices and locations of such buses have not worked out. The way I see it:

    -It was already kinda butchered when I got it so I'm unlikely to make it look worse
    -I know at least the past 14 years of its history so there won't be a ton of surprises
    -It ran and shifted great when I parked it, other than a couple of minor oil leaks. I have a good handle on what will need to be done mechanically before it's roadworthy again.


I have some other rust porn from this past weekend to post, but my lunch break is up!
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yugo42
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:39 pm    Post subject: Re: '69 Westy finally getting the rehab it needs... Reply with quote

While I'm looking at the front end, are there any recommended reputable front beam sources these days? It seems the sources for rebuilt beams is largely limited to either lucking out in the Samba classifieds or ponying up for a narrowed/slammed setup. I'm considering adjusters for fine tuning but plan to run stock height and geometry (better for camping). Mine has the usual failure points:

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I got most of the nose details apart inside and out and pulled the windshield. I found what I expected to find there, but it was still horrible to lay eyes on and poke fingers through.

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The inner lip is salvageable in spots but will need some patching.

After looking it over, I'm thinking a whole nose makes sense. Between the windshield rot, the dents, some crust in the headlight buckets, and the rust down low, I think it would be more work with a worse result to try to piece it in. The inner lower nose piece is fairly solid except for a similar bad section on each side.

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I just got the Haynes book in the mail today that Tcash recommended above. It really has some great photos and I'm looking forward to reading through it.
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yugo42
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: '69 Westy finally getting the rehab it needs... Reply with quote

After looking through the Haynes Transporter Restoration Manual, I'm leaning toward sticking to my original plan of starting at the rockers and outriggers. One of my biggest worries was that I would cut too much out and the bus would twist or that I would have inadequate bracing, but between the forums and that book it seems these areas can generally be addressed without too much worry about tweaking things out of square.

Yesterday was a rare 60-degree March day in Rochester, so I took the day off to go at the driver's side belly pan and see what needed to be replaced under there.

Like the slider side, the pan itself was in good shape except for some areas right along the rockers.
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I did my best to salvage this one intact. After some drilling, grinding, seam-buster chiseling, and some hot sparks into the ear hole, it was off in one piece. If I fix the outside edge it can be reused.
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I learned that I like the drill-based spot weld cutters far better than the rotabroach type. It's much easier to control the depth and know when you're through. The rotabroach is great for the first handful of holes but really wants to walk around when the teeth start dulling. I wound up with a bunch of these grooves in the frame rail from it, and nothing but a small divot where I used the drill-type (wish I switched to it sooner). I guess it'll be good upside-down welding practice to fill these back in.
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I planted a flag in the rust pile that fell out of the area.
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The scene under there was actually better than I expected. Except for the nasty mess near the front wheel well and bad rockers that were known, all of the I-beam members and frame members are in good shape and the floor is solid out past the inner rockers (it looks worse than it is near the camera). The rear outrigger is solid enough where I think I only have to replace the jacking point there.
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The center portion of the underside between the main frame rails is still heavily coated in an oily tar undercoating. I'm on the fence about stripping all of that off and coating in Masterseries, etc.. I generally don't like undercoating but I think it's a big reason why that area is still in solid shape.
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At this point I'm going to order some metal for this side and clean things up while the parts are on the way. I'm also flip-flopping about taking the windows out to protect from sparks. The windshield was a no-brainer since it leaked anyway, but once they are all out, the bus becomes *really* open until the bodywork is done.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: '69 Westy finally getting the rehab it needs... Reply with quote

glad you got T-Cash recommended book. He is the bay window forum gift that keeps on giving. His Photo threads are amaze. He left awhile ago, but the legacy of info he left on here is simply invaluable.
good luck on the repairs, and glad you got back at it.
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yugo42
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:39 am    Post subject: Re: '69 Westy finally getting the rehab it needs... Reply with quote

Minor progress update. I managed to cut out the glued and screwed galvanized patches that were in the splash area of the driver's front wheel well and get a good look at the top hat and outrigger, and see the rust below the foot bulge a little better:
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I figured before I start cutting metal, I had to finish stripping out the old fiberglass insulation from the walls and slider, and removed the camping outlet:

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I think that outlet should be totally fine with a little contact cleaner Laughing

After going back and forth, I decided yanking the windows to protect from grinding damage made sense. Those areas all need some work, and by pulling the windshield I already kinda committed it to be an indoor pet.

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The frames under the jalousie windows were not bad at all, with just a couple dime-sized patches to make. The rear two were notably uglier, with the passenger side the worse of those two.
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yugo42
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: '69 Westy finally getting the rehab it needs... Reply with quote

Does everyone generally slice out the front section of the cargo floor to replace a front top-hat section? Mine seems OK in the middle but is rotted from the outside at least to the main frame rails. I plan on saving most of the cargo floor other than the right edge and a few patches, but I think access will be awful without cutting it out. Most people I see replacing that top hat are also doing whole cargo floors.
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Has anyone used this front wheel well "splash plate" piece before? So many places sell one, but I haven't come across anyone using this piece in their repairs. I think I can cut it apart and use pieces of it to fix the bottom end of the bulkhead. I'm thinking maybe its just meant to cover up rust-prone areas but not necessarily match existing seams.
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Either way, I have some UK metal on the way from BD to address the driver's side rocker area and structure!
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yugo42
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:58 am    Post subject: Re: '69 Westy finally getting the rehab it needs... Reply with quote

Well, I think I'll have to post any questions I can't slog through myself as a separate post since people only follow these long threads when they are true artistry or flaming trainwrecks; unfortunately I can't offer the excitement and thrills of either case right now.

This past weekend I thought I was going to start into the front top hat section, but in getting a look underneath I figured I need to deal with the center heat tube area to improve access and avoid fire. It had j-tubes when I bought it and I replaced with the same years ago, so the heat and defrost vents were just things that coughed out fabric and foam shreds into my face when the pressure differential at speed got just right (likely a nest from a long-gone mouse somewhere in there).

This is what I started with, and had always wanted to avoid touching.
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The construction and duct tape work were truly impressive, and I wish I knew what brand they used because that stuff was still stuck tight even though it was hard as a rock. Many things were capped off with duct tape. The basic layers over the remaining stock parts went something like this from inside out:
Heat tube->duct tape mummification->fiberglass pipe wrap combined with loose fiberglass mat->duct tape mummification->steel tie wire->two layers black plastic->wraps of duct tape->aluminum tie wire

At some point the long tube had rusted out and was replaced with what I think is 2.5" chrome exhaust pipe, held in place by coils of rolled-up galvanized sheet
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At some point, the center tube rusted out and was replaced with what I think is 2.5" chrome exhaust pipe with a trumpet flare at one end. It was held in with coiled-up galvanized sheet shoved in the ends, fiberglass pipe wrap, plastic, duct tape, tie wire. It seems to have stayed surprisingly water tight.
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Anyway, it's stripped down back to the rear of the cargo floor. The mummification continues beyond there, but I had enough mesothelioma risk for one day. I also realized that without a lift or some really tall stands, I might be better off cutting front of the floor out to do the top hat. Still pondering that one.
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