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Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance!
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whatdoesthisbuttondo?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:45 am    Post subject: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! Reply with quote

Hi Samba,

As mentioned in my other thread...

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=553844&start=40

...I picked up a second '73 over the summer and my plans are to drive and enjoy it while I weld and enjoy the massive amount of metalwork needed to get the first bus back together.

Currently my goal is to get the new bus ready by the end of August and I completed my first engine drop yesterday (for other first timers, also with a very rudimentary understanding, this took me three five hour sessions to document, troubleshoot, and get it clear of the bus).

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My goal with this engine is to have it running as well as it can, but not have to do a full or even top end rebuild at this point.

My plan is to:

- de-gunk
- clean engine bay
- remove BN4 (done)
- Replace gaskets on engine (pushrod tubes, oil breather, valve covers etc.)
- replace all vacuum lines and connections
- replace all fuel lines (including emissions)
- clean and replace any funky electrical connections
- rebuild both carbs and balance
- go...

As for the health of this engine (Im almost certain its the original 1700), I was not able to do a compression or leakdown test as it wasn't running (would fire up but not idle), but I know the compression was getting lower, based on PO receipts, but it was somewhat even.

I have a second engine that came with the bus, but I am again not sure of its health. I was told it was a good core that was going to be used for a rebuild (see below).
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Does this sound like a good approach, despite the unknowns? Does anything not look right?

Anything critical to check at this point?

Where should I be starting?
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1973 Campervan. Stock 1700. Dual Solex carbs. Pertronix electronic points on distributor (stock, not a 009). Engine rebuilt in October 2016.
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timvw7476
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:03 am    Post subject: Second Bus and First Drop. Need guidance! Reply with quote

Seeing as you have a "loose" trans, I would attach it to both cases, spin
them (engines) and go with the set-up with the best / even compression
results. Mark the "loser" numbers on a tag for future reference. You
may have two viable runners or two rebuilders, at least you will know.
Please put oil in before you spin!
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:56 am    Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! Reply with quote

whatdoesthisbuttondo? wrote:
As for the health of this engine (Im almost certain its the original 1700), I was not able to do a compression or leakdown test as it wasn't running (would fire up but not idle), but I know the compression was getting lower, based on PO receipts, but it was somewhat even.

I have a second engine that came with the bus, but I am again not sure of its health. I was told it was a good core that was going to be used for a rebuild (see below).

Post numbered pics of each sparkplug from each engine as well as photos inside the rocker boxes and down the breather towers, also the sludge inside the oil strainer plates.
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whatdoesthisbuttondo?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, here are photos and what I know about each engine... I haven't done a compression test yet as I wanted to hear your opinion on the photos.

Engine 1 was the one I dropped out of the bus. It would start but not idle, it ran a couple of times over a couple of years, but mostly sat. Compression readings were a bit low but somewhat even so says service records. has some JB welded threaded bits at the cylinders from a decommissioned emissions thing maybe?

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Spark Plug from #1. I had pumped a bunch of gas in when I was trying to run it, I believe, and everything smells pretty gas-like...
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intake from #1
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spark plug from #2
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intake from #2
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spark plug from #3
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intake from #3
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spark plug from #4
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intake from #4
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oil strainer
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rocker box from 3 & 4. 1 & 2 was pretty much identical, but deleted the picture by accident.
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On to Engine 2, this was going to be used by the PO for a rebuild. It was kept under a tarp outside and has lots of flash rust and small bits of corrosion forming on lots of surfaces. Larger sticker is in english and mentions California emissions standards... This engine also has the jb welded threaded bits at the cylinders. and the metal lines to the front of the carb intake Y bits are pinched off. The flywheel has surface rust but the teeth do not have the worn facets that Engine 1 shows.
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Spark plug #1. all the ends had light corrosion.
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intake #1
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Spark plug #2
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Intake #2
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Spark plug #3
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Intake #3. looks like a bunch of crap fell into this one. Makes me nervous to do a compression test and get things moving.
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Spark plug #4
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Intake #4
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Intakes show moisture was getting in...
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Oil strainer
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There are some chunks at the bottom, but they did not appear to be fresh metal... Rust maybe?
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Rocker over 1 and 2
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Rocker over 3 and 4
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Please let me know what I should do!
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1973 Campervan. Stock 1700. Dual Solex carbs. Pertronix electronic points on distributor (stock, not a 009). Engine rebuilt in October 2016.
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm....., #1 doesn't look like a failure but it's definitely high mileage and using oil, #2 looks much more promising aside from the corrosion. I think I'd pull the heads on that one for a look inside before any serious turning though.
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whatdoesthisbuttondo?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I think I will pull the heads on Engine 2 and get some pictures. A couple quarts of oil that came out of it, so I'm crossing my fingers that things inside the case are OK...

Any way of telling if Engine 2 is a 1700 or an 1800 before pulling the heads?
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A 1700 would have come with 8mm valve adjusting screws. A 1700 can easily be enlarged to make an 1800.
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whatdoesthisbuttondo?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, finally got things stripped away. Never done this so its taking a while! Hopefully it is the right engine choice so I can get driving this thing! Itll take what it takes I guess. I think this engine has been rebuilt somewhat recently because pretty much every piece of hardware has been coming out easily and some look brand new. That and I don't think VW would have used gobs of red sealant. I have no idea if they did a good job or not. Please tell me if anything looks fishy.

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moment of truth...
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They look like 1700 heads, and I haven't found any cracks yet which is promising. How do I tell if this thing was converted into a larger size during the rebuild?

In any case, I have no idea where to go from here... Let me know if there are any more photos I can take.
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1973 Campervan. Stock 1700. Dual Solex carbs. Pertronix electronic points on distributor (stock, not a 009). Engine rebuilt in October 2016.
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whatdoesthisbuttondo?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a photo inside one of the cylinders, there are tiny black spots of corrosion inside on one half, I presume the upper side from when the engine was sitting... Not much scuffing as far as I can see as Tom Wilson describes it.

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I do not want to leave things sitting for too long (there were enough spiders on the outside!), what would be the smart thing to do at this point?
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those look pretty fresh like a recent rebuild. The next step is hone that cylinder and see how deep that pitting is, you may never remove the stain but as long as there's no groove it'll likely be good.
As for storage get everthing oily and bag it, if you can keep it in a temperature controlled environment even better.
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whatdoesthisbuttondo?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK thanks, I guess I need to find a machine shop then. Is there anything else I should be taking them while I'm at it?
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your cam looks pretty good from what I can see from your pictures. It hasn't begun the get the weird Type 4 wear pattern yet. It might respond well to having the lifters refaced to replace the original convex shape to their face which has probably worn fairly flat at this point in time.

The condition of the top end of the cylinders is what counts way more than the condition of the bottom end as shown in your picture. It is important to know how much of a ridge there is right at the top of the piston ring travel. There are specs for the amount of allowable taper in the diameter of the cylinder from top to bottom.
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whatdoesthisbuttondo?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, things are oiled and bagged and cylinders are in for honing, they got a green light from the VW machinist. The lifters looked OK and I think I will reuse as is: there is still some convexity there when held together and up to the light. Three have a very small amount of pitting, which Tom Wilson argues for throwing away, but again, I want to avoid new lifters and camshaft etc at this point if its not completely necessary.
(note these aren't arranged by in-engine configuration)
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I found one broken ring (first ring on #4 piston) that had snapped cleanly at the halfway mark, this is the cylinder with the worst rust shown in an earlier picture. Turns out the others had basically no rust inside. Still deciphering the Tom Wilson section on measuring piston/ring/cylinder allowances...

Is it a good idea to replace all rings?

Thinking of having the heads inspected, bead blasted (after removing everything), and replacing exhaust valves.
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babysnakes
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Replace the rings. With a fresh hone job new rings are a must. Actually, when the pistons leave the jugs the rings will turn and will no longer re-seat in the original break in pattern if that makes sense.
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whatdoesthisbuttondo?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That makes total sense, it seems odd that they wouldn't do some turning on their own in there, they seem so loose when the pistons are cool.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They may spin a bit while seating, but after break-in they should stay put. This has a relation to how you position the rings upon initial set up as to reduce the amount of blow-by and lost oil.
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whatdoesthisbuttondo?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:25 pm    Post subject: Update Reply with quote

Ok, finally making a bit of progress, my goal of having things ready for the end of August was clearly optimistic, but I did not anticipate doing a top end rebuild. It feels like I have only been scrubbing grease off of tin and parts for the last few weeks, but some other progress is being made...

Cylinders were honed...
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Pistons cleaned up and a full new set of rings will be installed.
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Heads were cleaned up, new exhaust valves and guides, and fly cut.
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Coat of temporary paint for the rust flowers that were all over the nose...

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Tin is all degreased and off to powdercoating...
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I stepped headlong into the pitfall of taking apart the fan, so I will have to use the one off Engine 1 to avoid having to try and balance the (another part to clean!).

First order of gaskets and hoses and rebuild kits arrived...

Major things left are to rebuild the carbs, clean and paint engine bay, temporary fix of rusted out battery tray, degrease tranaxle, and a million little things! Winter camping here I come.


Does anybody recognize this??? I found it on the floor after degreasing the fan housing.
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Also, does anyone know if a fuel tank from a '72 will work for the '73? I have one in great shape but it looks like it might be a bit different... Im scared to see how much sludge is in the bottom of the tank which is still installed.
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white74westy
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Update Reply with quote

whatdoesthisbuttondo? wrote:


Does anybody recognize this??? I found it on the floor after degreasing the fan housing.
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Also, does anyone know if a fuel tank from a '72 will work for the '73? I have one in great shape but it looks like it might be a bit different... Im scared to see how much sludge is in the bottom of the tank which is still installed.




Looks like the retaining clip for the alternator boot. I think the 72 and 73 tanks are interchangeable.
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whatdoesthisbuttondo?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent, thanks.
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khalimadeath
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice work...also I dont mean to be rude but I just pulled my motor for the first time and it only took about an hour. How did you go about doing it? Just seems like a long time for 15~ or so bolts to take out.
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