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Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance!
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Tcash Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! Reply with quote

whatdoesthisbuttondo? wrote:
"What do you mean by getting polished?"
Starting to shine up as honing marks are worn.


You don't want it shinny. You want the cross hatch honing marks in there. That is what breaks in the rings. Without them the rings will never seat.
As BD suggested have them Re-Honed.

You want to clean the shit out of the honing lines. Stone debris get trapped in those honing lines and screws up the rings. I used to put them in a 5 gal bucket of hot water with little tide added and scrub them with a finger nail brush. Rinse dry and oil and then put them in plastic bags.

The machine shop does not clean the cylinders for you. If you did not clean the shit out of the cylinders before you assembled the motor, you do need to replace the rings.

Good luck
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whatdoesthisbuttondo?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! Reply with quote

Thanks, yes I will re-clean them well again.

I scrubbed each cylinder several times in detergent and hot water just before assembly, then used WD40 to get rid of the water and not flash rust. I think I will try something with some abrasive qualities this time as suggested here:

http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.ca/2007/07/basic-jugs-iii.html
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whatdoesthisbuttondo?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! Reply with quote

Haven't posted in ages, excited to get back to this project.

So I did end up splitting the case, and took everything in to the mechanic for measuring. The rear cam thrust bearing was getting pounded out so new bearings all around. The knock was caused by fore-aft movement as things heated up and when there was no load.

The shake at 2000 was because the pressure plate was not centered on the flywheel. Mechanic thinks the flywheel cutting was too wide on both flywheels I supplied, thus not being able to center pressure plate properly. Went for a third flywheel and a new pressure plate- now centered.

New piston pin bushings as they were out of tolerance.

After months I'm ready to start getting it back together (again). The shop put together the lower end so Im back in familiar territory. Im determined to not have a third buss-less summer so it's going back together in the next few weeks.

A couple other things done, new exhaust stud on one of the heads, re-honed cylinders (got some bon ami to do some intense scrubbing), new alternator as bearings were shot and it was super corroded.

Any advice on getting distributor drive shaft lined up properly with lower end already together?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! Reply with quote

whatdoesthisbuttondo? wrote:
... new alternator ...


Beware of new alternators that short out on the back and fry the wiring. I'm a '69 camper generator person, but I've read many posts about people who have replaced their alternator. Something about the stud being to long. Search and read.

Aloha
tp
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! Reply with quote

Any advice on getting distributor drive shaft lined up properly with lower end already together?
Throw the pulley on. Turning clockwise, watch the intake cam lobe on #1 through the lifter hole. The intake valve should have just closed the valve before lining up the tdc mark on the parting line of the case.

Alternator Type IV (4)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! Reply with quote

Thank you, both great tips. The alternator post does look a bit long to me so I will check clearance.

Here's a few shots of when I had things apart. Prev builder liked silicone.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! Reply with quote

whatdoesthisbuttondo? wrote:
... The alternator post does look a bit long to me so I will check clearance. ...


There are quite a few posts from people that have fried their wiring when installing a new alternator. Problems with the post and/or washer:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=655415&highlight=alternator+short

EDITED:

Cutting the stud, replacing the washer, and an insulating boot would be belt and suspenders.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Aloha
tp


Last edited by Tom Powell on Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! Reply with quote

Tom Powell wrote:
whatdoesthisbuttondo? wrote:
... The alternator post does look a bit long to me so I will check clearance. ...


There are quite a few posts from people that have fried their wiring when installing a new alternator. Problems with the post and/or washer:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=655415&highlight=alternator+short

An insulating boot:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

would be belt and suspenders.

Aloha
tp

Don't trust the boot alone, it can get abraded, open up & you've got a
mystery discharge,
to hack that B+ stud, leave the 2nd nut, drawn down, cut flush & draw the
nut off, so now you have viable lead-in threads. Looks like they're still
manufacturing time bombs. : l
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! Reply with quote

Did you find the source of the knocking now that you have it torn down? Mine is doing the same thing. I am going to pull the pump but want some other input. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:08 am    Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! Reply with quote

The knocking was caused by one of the cam bearings being pounded on, it had visible wear. Symptoms were knock that got louder as engine heated up, and went away with load. Put in new bearings all around. Shudder at 2000 RPM was caused by pressure plate not being centered on flywheel as machinist had removed material from flywheel edge which is needed as guide for pressure plate.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! Reply with quote

Wholly cow U have done alot. I went the buy one already to go route. Good for u. Hooe your on the road soon. Great documenting.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! Reply with quote

Thanks. Yah when I do it again I'm thinking of getting a CS kit or similar- although a buddy is trying to get me to go Subaru. Some random bits got done while waiting for parts:

this is the worst of the rust underneath, put some por 15 on it to slow it for now.
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redid vent window and scrapers. I hate getting that thing back in with new scrapers. I get mad just thinking about it Razz

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new vapour barrier and temp door card. saved the vinyl off the old one, might make a repro one day.

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finally back to getting top end together.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


stripped a rocker stud going to 18ft lbs instead of 10 thanks to Wilson book misprint. I hate that feeling of 'just a liiiiittle more and it'll start to snug up...' it never does!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


and finally, to double check, does this look right for the12 degree distributor angle? confirmed #1 is at TDC through the spark plug hole and fan "0" is at top lined up with case parting line.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Aiming for Sunday.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! Reply with quote

Make sure you are on TDC for the compression stroke.

Distributor Finding TDC #1/ Installing Drive Gear and Dist.

Good luck
Tcash
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! Reply with quote

whatdoesthisbuttondo? wrote:



and finally, to double check, does this look right for the12 degree distributor angle? confirmed #1 is at TDC through the spark plug hole and fan "0" is at top lined up with case parting line.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Aiming for Sunday.


You have to put the timing scale on to assure TDC, its not based on the case parting line on a T4 motor. or trust your eyes and cylinder #1
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! Reply with quote

To help avoid shorts, I cut down the post and installed a smaller washer on the alternator.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Got the engine back together and managed not to strip anything else:)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Installed with trans in place

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


re filed the tops of the manifolds, new copper rings and heated up the copper rings on the bbq to soften the copper. loctite 514 on both sides of sealing rings

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


installed exhaust after getting the engine in, made it much easier and didn't worry about pressure on the head to exhaust seal, but definitely a 2 person job. I made sure all fasteners were really loose and the edges of the manifolds were rounded to avoid mangling the heads and affecting the final seal.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Yet again, braided rubber fails horribly after a few months of use. Found some better new rubber fuel hose, non pressurized, OK because it is not fuel injection.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


static timed and hooked everything up, after start up, ran her for 20 minutes varying between 2 and 3000 rpm for break in. Noisey.

Shut off and did an oil change, sheen of metal bits but no chunks:)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


ran up some big hills under load to break the rings in on the first drive and then did the full dual carb adjustment procedure (including timing, valves). tightened the exhaust nuts up a bit more at this point.

Completed her first trip successfully, 80km round trip.

ahhh...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Head temps maxed at 360 and were cooling nicely on the highway. typically around 320. Dakota gauge and harness, measuring ring under #3 spark plug.

Idle was fluctuating a bit, sometimes would run at 2000 (even after warm up), and sometimes at 1000... never died on me though and no backfiring.

hefty feeling up the hills but its a 1700...

On highway in 4th was at 4000 rmp at 60 mph. Is this about average?

Next I will redo timing and carb adjustment, check any fasteners I can see and do another oil change and see how things are going. Anything else to think about at this early stage??
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! Reply with quote

Hey!! You are on the road! Congratulations!
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! Reply with quote

whatdoesthisbuttondo? wrote:

Completed her first trip successfully, 80km round trip.

ahhh...

Hell yeah!, congratulations!
So far it all sounds good!
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:37 am    Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! Reply with quote

Been pretty smooth sailing for the last bit Cool until starting to adjust valves this morning...

I generally back the plugs out as there is too much compression to turn the engine over by hand.

Number Two was the first to come out and it was super tight- when it broke free it spun out with steady, but notable resistance. Checked threads and they were fairly clean (no metal). I remember one of the plugs was quite tight going in and out when I was assembling, I checked then too, to make sure it wasn't stripping, and didn't find any metal.

Tried to get #2 plug back in, first time around there was a bit of resistance but it popped out again, this time taking about a threads worth of aluminum with it...

Being very delicate, I tried threading the plug in a few times and it only goes about a quarter turn before binding. If I force it in I think there's a good chance of stripping the whole thing.

I'm not making any fast moves and I'm hoping this won't result in having to take a head off again.

Any suggestions?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:47 am    Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! Reply with quote

Scary!, try a spark plug thread chaser and see how much of a fight it puts up. You might also try wrapping the socket extension in tape or something to bring it's diameter up to almost as big as the hole in the tin to help keep it aligned.

There are also thread chasers that go into the hole and then expand to do the cutting on the way out so the remaining lower threads become the guide, not sure where you'd find one of those, Lordco maybe?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: Second Bus and First Engine Drop. Need guidance! Reply with quote

Yes! Thank you!

Thread chaser worked. Careful on the angle, a bit of pressure to get it going, but found its place pretty quickly. Took it out every few threads, cleaned little metal flecks and grease that was on there to catch them, and reapplied grease.

Cleaned spark plug threads again, bit of anti-seize, started with old hose, and in.

One of those back tapping tools was incredibly hard to find locally, only available online.

Back on the road.
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