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My First VW, It's a 69 Bay Window Deluxe
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Jack_O_Trades
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:04 am    Post subject: Balancing Parts for the Engine Reply with quote

I now have all the parts to build the engine! Does that mean that I get to start bolting things together all willy nilly? Nope!

After reading, researching, and reading some more (mostly from the blog posts of Mr Hoover, Samba threads, etc..)on different aspects of balancing, I have been making my own attempts at balancing.

There seem to be two schools of thought (probably more than that, really) on static balancing. One is that you weigh everything (pistons, wrist pins, rods, etc...) and bring the heaver item to that of the lightest one in the group. The other school of thought is that you match assemblies so that the total assembly (piston, wrist pin, rod) is the same as the other three sets.

To me, it seems to make sense to try and bring the individual components to exact as possible. This could potentially lead to a stacked tolerance error greater than if you match assemblies. However, with discrete component balancing at least the parts are not matched and can be swapped or replaced without too much fuss.

So far, I have been happy with the parts I have purchased. Everything has been within VW spec on weights. However I am trying to get my parts exactly equal to each other within the my scales ability to resolve which is .1g.

My pistons came in at 361.9g. three of the four were exactly on. I had to remove around .6g from the forth piston to get it exact (within my ability to measure).

My wrist pins were a different story. I was expecting these to be exact but they ranged from 128.4g to 127.8g. It's not much of a variance but I can make it better. I still need to do this.

I spent some time on the connecting rods. I wanted to get this right. My understanding is that you want to the total weight of the rods to be exact and you want the center of gravity to be the same along the length of the rod. One way to do this is to suspend one end of the rod from the center of it's pivot and weigh the other end of the rod from the center of it's pivot. I read articles and watched videos on this and decided to make my own fixture for measuring this. It took me four or five iterations to come up with a fixture that would give reliable, repeatable results within the precision that I was trying to accomplish.

My first iteration consisted of supporting the rod on dowel pins and gage blocks but this had fundamental flaws. Here is a picture of my final setup which looks very much like stuff that you can purchase. Silly me for trying to reinvent the wheel.

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I used the digital scale to measure the wrist pin end while suspending the crank shaft end.

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I used my triple beam balance to measure the total weight. My balance only went up to 610g and my scale only went up to 600g so I had to get creative because my rods were heavier than this. On the balance you can add a bias to it. In this case a couple of washers at the end of the beam. My bias was 16.1 g according to my calibration weight. This was enough of a bias to measure total weight of the rods.

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Initially the rods were weighed in at

_ _ Wrist Pin _ _ Total Weight (not including 16.1g bias)
#1: 189.6g _ _ _ 597.3g
#2: 190.8g _ _ _ 595.3g
#3: 190.4g _ _ _ 595.0g
#4: 189.6g _ _ _ 597.3g

These are within VW spec but again, I felt I could do better than this.

A straight forward method would have me remove weight from 2 and 3 at the wrist pin to get the wrist pin weight to the same as 1 and 4 but then I would have to remove total weight from 1 and 4 and risk affecting the center of gravity.

It's hard to explain but I was able to play around with where on the rod I removed weight so that I didn't have to do too much removal on all four rods.

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Here are the final numbers after balancing

_ _ Wrist Pin _ _ Total Weight (not including 16.1g bias)
#1: 189.5g _ _ _ 594.5g
#2: 189.8g _ _ _ 594.5g
#3: 189.8g _ _ _ 594.5g
#4: 189.5g _ _ _ 594.5g


This is acceptable and basically pushes the repeatability of my setup.

Once I balance the wrist pins, it will be on to the crankshaft, flywheel, and pulley. I have no way of dynamically balancing these components so I was thinking of just doing a static balance of the individual components and then trying to get the assembly statically balanced. Any thoughts on this?

Also, I started prepping the cylinders by painting them with flat black Rustoleum and baking them after drying.

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Next step with these is to check the ring gaps.
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Jack_O_Trades
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasted youth/adulthood wrote:
I'm surprised you had such poor fit-up with your bushings, but it looks like you overcame the problem.

The next problem you might find one day as you grow your bus collection, is a mixed set of Triple Square cap screws and Allen Socket screws on the same bus. Ask me how I know!


I don't know what to say about the bushings. I almost wonder if the hockey stick might have been oversized. Unfortunately, I do not have good OE parts to take measurements from.

I have read about the triple square screws. Before all this I picked up a box of class 10.9 M8 SHC screws from McMaster. So hopefully I will never encounter the triple squares... unless I am at a pick-and-pull or working on someone else's bus (never say never). I guess I better get the tool for those just in case.
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Jack_O_Trades
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:47 am    Post subject: Attention to the Rust Reply with quote

On Sunday, I was supposed to be working on prepping the engine parts but became distracted by the rust spots on the bus. I don't really want to get into body work at this stage in my project. I just want to get it up and running. However, the more I dig in the more I find of things I want to fix.

Because the bus is exposed, sitting outside, I wanted to kill the visible rust before too long. I live a couple of miles from the ocean surrounded by a large salt flat and things seem to rust faster around here than say 20 miles inland.

The biggest patch of rust was a strip along the sunroof. So I started stripping the paint and low and behold the whole area turned to swiss cheese. It had rusted from the inside out and the only thing holding it together was the paint. Bust out the Bondo!.....or not.

I pulled the sunroof without damaging anything thanks to the sunroof FAQ by SGKent. This will give me a chance to clean and rebuild this assembly so that it does not fail prematurely (after +40 years, right)

Here's the damage

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I had some .030" 4130 sitting around so I cut a strip off for the main portion. I then used this as a cutout template for the sunroof. This seems to be backwards from what I have seen people do but it results in a much closer match for the seams leaving less of a gap to try and fill.

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The first section is cut out, look at all the crustiness. I think I caught this in time. It doesn't look like it has spread too much further into the sunroof panel. I initially cut a little too deep going through both panels. I changed my technique so that i would only cut through the outer panel. I will have to repair the kerf I created in the inner panel.

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here are the replacement pieces ready to go. I am going to TIG this so that I have better control over the heat and feed (vs my wire-feed flux core welder). But I needed to pick up a new bottle of Argon. It was empty from my last project. In the mean time, I sprayed the offending area and killed the rust.

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Last edited by Jack_O_Trades on Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:58 am; edited 3 times in total
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Jack_O_Trades
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:55 am    Post subject: I Finally Found One! Reply with quote

One final post for the night.

My bus did not come with an emblem. I have since removed the spare tire carrier from the nose and repaired the damage with the intent of putting on an emblem. I have been looking for a couple weeks now. I refused to pay more for a used part than what I could buy a new repop part. I was lucky enough to win this guy off ebay for what I would consider a fair price and it showed up today as I was headed to work. This will probably be the last thing I install before it's maiden voyage.

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Lionhart94010
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great Progress!

FYI, when filling your Transmission with Gear oil, do not use a GL5, I use Red line MT90(GL4 Safe for brass synchros) it is suitable for our older T2 Transmissions…

Lots of post on what gear oil to use in T2 tranies, as Bob would say check it out for your self…

http://www.ratwell.com/technical/GearOil.html (best explanation I have read)
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secretsubmariner
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionhart94010 wrote:
...

Basic Jugs - I



Basic Jugs - II




Basic Jugs - III


...



Sounds like a mediocre titty magazine. Laughing

Excellent Stuff, man, this is coming along very nicely!
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flaquito1
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:37 pm    Post subject: '69 Bus Reply with quote

I agree...Keep it stock. Depends on your driving habits, maybe an engine upgrade later but for now, buff it up, clean it up and leave it mostly stock! Should never need more than an engine upgrade more than 1776.
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secretsubmariner
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stock shmock it's already lacking most of the transporter interior. Making it fit your needs and keeping it functioning and on the road is what matters.

It's not like OP said he was going to black out the windows, paint it chartreuse, lower it 2 feet and slap 17 inch mercedes wheels on it.

If that were my bus and I put a custom camper interior in it, I would do it in a safe way that can be reversed at a later time. I prefer the transporter layout but I'm a sucker for tasteful, custom camper interiors Twisted Evil
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Jack_O_Trades
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionhart94010 wrote:
Great Progress!

FYI, when filling your Transmission with Gear oil, do not use a GL5, I use Red line MT90(GL4 Safe for brass synchros) it is suitable for our older T2 Transmissions…

Lots of post on what gear oil to use in T2 tranies, as Bob would say check it out for your self…

http://www.ratwell.com/technical/GearOil.html (best explanation I have read)


Done and done, another good read. I picked up a gallon of this stuff though I probably over-paid after seeing your link.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000M8RYMC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I have been spending some quality time with the engine case. It's cleaned up now but some odd things popped up. From what I can determine, this is basically a Frankenstein engine. I came across some paper work that shows the engine was rebuilt in 1977. After that I don't know. The vehicle was driven for another 13 years up until 1990.

This is my first VW engine so nothing really screamed out at me as being weird. But the more I read up on the the variants of the type 1,2,3, flags start popping up.

As I was cleaning the case I noticed that it had two oil pressure relief valves (front and rear). For a '69, it should only have one. I started researching the stampings and I guess the case is a '71. I'm OK with this because they are supposed to be more robust right?

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What looks to be an AF I think is just a poorly stamped AE

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Another odd thing about the case is the cylinder studs are 10mm (with case savers) vs 8mm. I haven't read anything indicating this to be typical. But it seems like it would be a good thing as far as sealing up the cylinders.

Also the case threw me off because only the crank shaft journals had been bored to +1mm. I miced the diameters of the crank and cam journals and they are within spec.

Adding to the confusion, the engine was equipped a 30-pict-1 carb matched to a 205T dizzy. I guess this is a good combo but not typical for the 1600 engines.

Here is what I am planning on doing with the engine. I already have the dual port heads which required me to pickup a new intake manifold.

For the carburetor and dizzy, I have a couple of options. The first one which I was going to try is a 34-pict-3 carb matched to the 205T which, based on my understanding is an SVSA dizzy. From my research it seams that the 34, with vacuum advance and retard is more suited to a DVDA dizzy. I have yet to find one of these.

If the 34 doesn't play well with the 205T I was thinking of trying it with a SVDA which has vacuum and mechanical advance. This is the one that I am looking at.

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC-043-905-205

If that doesn't work...

As a final backup, because it seems that the 30-pict and 205T are made for each other, I was looking at an adapter plate to make-up the 30-pict to the dual port intake manifold

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC-113-129-029-KIT

From what I have read, the 30-pict is supposed to provide better fuel economy. However my 30 carb may be due for a professional rebuild.

Can anyone offer real world experience or suggestions on which route to go with? I want to keep it simple and reliable.

Thanks
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wcfvw69
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 30 PICT-1 carb you have works well with the 205T distributor. However, that distributor does not work with a 34-3 solex. It's a different vacuum signal.

If you're going dual port, your best bet would be to buy a rebuilt/refurbished 34-3 from Volksbiz since your 30-1 needs a overhaul anyway. Everyone raves about his carbs. You then need to buy a SVDA distributor that works well with it.

Here's a great link by Andy on carbs

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=185095
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My 1970 bus refresh thread- http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598191

1970 Westfalia Bus
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Jack_O_Trades
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wcfvw69 wrote:
The 30 PICT-1 carb you have works well with the 205T distributor. However, that distributor does not work with a 34-3 solex. It's a different vacuum signal.

If you're going dual port, your best bet would be to buy a rebuilt/refurbished 34-3 from Volksbiz since your 30-1 needs a overhaul anyway. Everyone raves about his carbs. You then need to buy a SVDA distributor that works well with it.

Here's a great link by Andy on carbs

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=185095


Thanks for the link. I had read that the 205T and 34 had a different signature. This was what raised my initial concern.

I assume vacuum signature is basically the vacuum curve with respect to the RPM for The Carb and for the dizzy it's the amount of advance with respect to the vacuum level. So when the signatures do not match, at a given RPM, The carb is producing the wrong vacuum for dizzy which results in the wrong advance...... Is my understanding correct?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jack_O_Trades wrote:


I assume vacuum signature is basically the vacuum curve with respect to the RPM for The Carb and for the dizzy it's the amount of advance with respect to the vacuum level. So when the signatures do not match, at a given RPM, The carb is producing the wrong vacuum for dizzy which results in the wrong advance...... Is my understanding correct?


From what I've learned over the past few weeks about carbs/distributors, that's pretty much it.
I had a 205T on my 34-3, and it didn't run right, didn't even idle correctly. I thought the carb was all messed up. After I learned about carb-distributor relationships, I put the correct distributor on (205Q). I didn't even touch the carb and it ran nearly perfectly! Amazing the difference when you pair the correct items.
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wcfvw69
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jack_O_Trades wrote:
wcfvw69 wrote:
The 30 PICT-1 carb you have works well with the 205T distributor. However, that distributor does not work with a 34-3 solex. It's a different vacuum signal.

If you're going dual port, your best bet would be to buy a rebuilt/refurbished 34-3 from Volksbiz since your 30-1 needs a overhaul anyway. Everyone raves about his carbs. You then need to buy a SVDA distributor that works well with it.

Here's a great link by Andy on carbs

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=185095


Thanks for the link. I had read that the 205T and 34 had a different signature. This was what raised my initial concern.

I assume vacuum signature is basically the vacuum curve with respect to the RPM for The Carb and for the dizzy it's the amount of advance with respect to the vacuum level. So when the signatures do not match, at a given RPM, The carb is producing the wrong vacuum for dizzy which results in the wrong advance...... Is my understanding correct?


Yes, the carb and distributor need to be matched. Some people run a 009 distributor on either carb with success though many complain of dead spots with an 009 and 34-3. Both my bugs have their original rebuilt distributors and carbs on them. They just work so smooth together. I like the 205k and 205T vacuum only distributors. I have found that these old distributors need to be taken apart and cleaned and lubed as well. Most have broken fiber washers in them which causes lots of up and down play too.
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My 1970 bus refresh thread- http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598191

1970 Westfalia Bus
1969 Convertible Bug
1967 Standard Bug
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm#A905205ZB
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate that everyone is yelling at this guy for wanting to do it his way. If he wants to use his engineering skills on the bus, then more power to him! He knows that all stock vehicles that are classics go for more. Now on that note, if you believe what he is doing is sacrelige, then leave the post. Thanks!
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Wasted youth
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChrisFred wrote:
I hate that everyone is yelling at this guy for wanting to do it his way. If he wants to use his engineering skills on the bus, then more power to him! He knows that all stock vehicles that are classics go for more. Now on that note, if you believe what he is doing is sacrelige, then leave the post. Thanks!



Well...it seems like most everyone has abandoned that trail now that he has obviously defeated the new-guy-gonna-tweak-this-bus stigma that has left many a bus half-assed and incomplete. Seems like most everyone has now become totally supportive. Cool

Early baywindows are rapidly becoming rare...kind of like what happened to splittys. Let us all know the next time you find a mostly unmolested, stock split window bus... Shocked ...paired up with some guy who suggests doing it his Evil or Very Mad way. I guarantee you the flames and assaults on such a hapless soul would be relentless, acidic and permanently damaging regardless if warranted or not.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I second all the comments about the 205T pairing only with a 30 or 31 series carb, and an SVDA or DVDA being paired with the 34 series carb.

As you've pointed out the intake manifolds/base sizes are different. A VW dual port intake manifold with 30/31 size throat exists. It was made by VW in the era of factory replacement and warranty sale motors. They came with an odd combination of 1300 and 1600 parts. I have one in my collection, but it's not going anywhere. I've never seen one at a swap, but the topic comes up here from time to time when a frustrated mechanic can't figure out what's going on. I'll try to get part numbers for you.

Robbie
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Jack_O_Trades
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:28 am    Post subject: Installing the Gas Tank Reply with quote

It's been awhile since I have posted in this thread. The build continues! The actual bus doesn't seem to be progressing much but there is much going on in preparation for work to be done. I have been purchasing parts, taking inventory, cleaning, pulling things apart, etc..... It seems to be far easier to take things apart than to put them together.

In my exploration and dismantling of the bus I found some butcherings that I can't even begin figure out as to why (I will have to post pictures) So I said F-it! I'm not going to worry about trying to keep everything stock. My goal now is a stock looking bus but with little improvements here and there to help with reliability, safety, and functionality. I will try to avoid further butchering of the bus but will be making improvements as I see fit.

Here is a quick list of what has been done since October

-Bought and erected a portable garage/tent from HF. It's a perfect fit for the bus, keeps it out of the elements and there is plenty of room to work on the bus while it's in the tent. I added fluorescent light fixtures to the tent so I can work in there day and night. The tent will also act as my paint booth when I get that far

-I finished with the sunroof and got it reinstalled, and adjusted.

-I pulled the windshield and repaired the rusty lower lip that is notorious for collecting water and turning to swiss cheese. I have just finished up painting the window sill and will be installing the windshield in a couple of weeks once I feel the paint it hard enough not to damage.

- When I had some free time for machining, I whipped up this little oil sump plate. Another little detail that no one will probably ever see.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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- I rebuilt brake system. When I went to bleed the brakes I had a seized cylinder. Upon further inspection, all cylinders were suffering from rust. So I replaced the Master cylinder, slave cylinders, brake pads, hardware, and all rubber lines. Now the brakes actually work!

- Replaced struts

- Repaired and repainted roof

- Pulled the dash and I am working out instrumentation

- I continued to work on the engine case. I have read Bob Hoovers articles and will be doing the HVX mods to improve oil flow to the left side of the engine.

http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/2007/05/hvx-mods.html

I have already cross drilled the oil ports so that oil flows to the third cam bearing journal. I have also pulled all the plugs and will be tapping for threaded plugs. I will also but converting the engine to full flow with an external oil filter.

-The big milestone this weekend was getting the gas tank installed and the fuel sender access port completed. Since I already have a thread on the fuel sender access port I won't go into it here.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7521098#7521098

With the access port installed here is the back end of the bus awaiting her fuel tank

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Here is the restored fuel tank, ready for installation. I had a fair amount of sludge after sitting around for +20 years. I stripped it and recoated it with the POR15 kit. I also repainted the outside of the tank.

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I also restored the fuel filler spout. I stripped it, powder coated the outside, and coated the inside with POR15.

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All rubber on the bus is getting replaced. This includes the original fuel filler hose. I picked up some gates fuel filler hose, P/N: 23976. I had to buy a 3 ft length but only needed 7.5" for the bus. I went ahead and cut of the remainder into more sections and will be offering them in the classifieds.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1742246

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The fuel tank is strapped in.

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The fuel filler hose is connected. Because the Gates hose is a little thicker, I had to use larger hose clamps vs the original VW ones.

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The breather line is hooked up with new rubber couplers and ABA hose clamps. Overkill? At least I won't have to think about it ever again.

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Fuel sender installed and hooked up.

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New parts for the fuel tank outlet. I went with an elbow vs straight nipple. This seems like a no brainer so that the rubber fuel line doesn't have to make a sharp bend out of the fuel tank. Any thoughts?

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The bulkhead, freshly painted and with a new seal.

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The bulkhead panel installed, and that wraps up the fuel tank!

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I have been moving my bus around the driveway quit a bit. Because the transmission is installed, I have to support it from the bus. Before installing the fuel tank, I was supporting the transmission off the the fuel tank deck with a pair of clamps and a 2x4 spacer between the deck and the bell housing. With the fuel tank and bulkhead installed this no longer worked.

I came up with this little gadget that does the trick. It's just a piece of sheet metal that hooks on the channel for the engine seal and bolts to the transmission bell housing. I simple solution, right?

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Next up is some suspension work. I am replacing the front sway bar with an HD sway bar and adding a sway bar to the rear.

Thanks again for looking and enduring these long posts.


Last edited by Jack_O_Trades on Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tom Powell
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Joined: December 01, 2005
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Location: Kaneohe
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:59 am    Post subject: Re: Balancing Parts for the Engine Reply with quote

Jack_O_Trades wrote:
...
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...


I've never assembled a VW engine and never seen balancing equipment. But I have a comment on your equipment. It seems to me that supporting the connecting rods on knife edges would be more accurate than supporting them with the cylinders. The scale deflection might be minuscule and the rotational friction from the cylinders minuscule, but they would be factors in accuracy. To what degree of accuracy or fraction of a milligram, it is most likely negligible.

Nice work

Aloha
tp
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Jack_O_Trades
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Joined: August 14, 2014
Posts: 76
Location: Bay Area CA
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Balancing Parts for the Engine Reply with quote

Tom Powell wrote:


I've never assembled a VW engine and never seen balancing equipment. But I have a comment on your equipment. It seems to me that supporting the connecting rods on knife edges would be more accurate than supporting them with the cylinders. The scale deflection might be minuscule and the rotational friction from the cylinders minuscule, but they would be factors in accuracy. To what degree of accuracy or fraction of a milligram, it is most likely negligible.

Nice work

Aloha
tp


I am kind of in the same boat as you in that I have never done a VW engine, or a four stroke for that matter. And, I have never tried balancing connecting rods. I have mainly been relying on my engineering background and doing some research on balancing connecting rods.

It took me several iterations both in design and methodology to get to my final process. More important than the actual numbers is repeatability. The setup needs to be repeatable to if not better than the precision that you are trying to achieve. With connecting rods you basically want to find the center of the two pivot points and measure the weight from these two centers. The most repeatable way to do this is to have two plugs that are close to the diameters of the two pivots suspended from their center. The best way to support something from it center without inducing lateral loads is supporting the plugs from bearings. In my setup, the larger end was supported from a bearing the smaller end was not (it should have been). To help mitigate lateral loads to the scale, the end that is not being weighed should be suspended from a string that is as long as possible. And this string should be parallel to the direction of measurement of the scale (in this case, vertical). By doing this you minimize how much the unweighed end is transversely pushing or pulling on the scale causing false readings.

This is how I arrived at my design which is not even unique. If you look at professional setups they are quite similar. I tried something that was similar to a knife edges and it did not yield repeatable results. I think this is because they don't really find the center of the pivot. If you do not weigh from the center than it throws off your measurements. And if your center is off every time then your measurements are all over the place.

In the end I was concerned with repeatability. And, with my setup, I was able to achieve this within a couple tenths of a gram.


Last edited by Jack_O_Trades on Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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