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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22356 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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catbox wrote: |
This one and then have a local competent shop remove the step.
The shop I use costs $15 per hole for that job.
Oh and shoot for a deck height of 0.050"
NO less that 0.040" and no more than 0.070" will do however.
This should be easy to deal with once the step is gone.
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Yeah, options 3 and 4 require going to steel or chromoly push rods, and really need a larger cam to work correctly. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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werker Redwood Wrencher
Joined: March 08, 2004 Posts: 308 Location: Separating the drum from the axle...
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:40 am Post subject: |
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OK. I wen't with the ACN Chinese heads per the recommendation by John at ACN. I also had to go with the longer reach spark plugs. I'll have the step machined out then install them with new P&C's. Assume all went well unless I report back.
Oh, I think I need to drill and tap the temp boss, but other than that they seem plug and play... _________________ 72 Squareback
9th air-cooled
Proud Member #8, SBS (Stock Bus Society)
---------------------------------------
Gremlin Killer
Robert Bills wrote: |
The guys on this forum can talk you through any issues you may have. Don't give up on the fuel injection - your Type 3 will thank you. |
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Mike Fisher Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006 Posts: 17962 Location: Eugene, OR
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:53 am Post subject: |
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I can't even feel a difference between 1600-1641. I would got with the 88 P&C for a 1679. _________________ https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Bobnotch wrote: |
VWCOOL wrote: |
KTPhil wrote: |
VWCOOL wrote: |
Tell us more about this...
How does increasing fuel pressure NOT lead to an increase in fuel flow while the injector is open?
How/why does the Type 3 injector design - old as it is - not respond to this? Does it impede the ability of the injector to open? |
One answer is that there is a narrow pressure range in which the output can be varied with pressure, but outside this range, things go haywire.
At low pressure, the atomization is so poor that there is unburned fuel in the exhaust, so it smells rich but is actually fuel starved. At high pressure, I'm not sure the pintles can operate correctly and so the flow changes. |
yes, good theory, generally true of any/all EFI engine/injector operation but why is the Type 3 injector design more susceptible? I was of the opinion the Beetle/Bus used the same injector - at 10psi more pressure |
No, they're not the same injector. Buses and bugs used L-jet injectors, while type 3s used their own injector. Infact, an upgraded type 3 injector (one that flows more like Tram mentioned above) was used on 914 Porsches, and some Volvos. The T-3 injector was never used on any other VW (ask Ray Greenwood).
To quote Tram;
You need to keep the cam stock. Anything bigger than 1641cc will require the "green/ blue" Type 4 /914/ Mercedes/ Volvo D-jet injectors for more fuel flow. |
Yes.....it was used on the 1.7L type 4 and 1.7L 914. It was also used on a few other D-jet cars.
Do not be fooled by the part # cast into the yellow part. The 001, 007 and 009 end # parts are the exact same injector in all respects. I think the only actual difference is a slight one in resistance on one or the other but they are still within spec to be used by ant D-jet system. I have used them all interchangeably with no issues.
But it is safe to say that virtually every low impedance injector in the first part of that chart, (Saab, VW, Porsche, Mercedes and Citroen)
,Renault...and I have no idea what the Jaguar runs)...is d-jet so these are pretty much a D-jet injector.
The differences are very small from injector part # to part #.
This is a pretty good chart here ...but they all have errors. The 1.8L Porsche 914 and the 2.0L 914 DO NOT use the same injector part #. The 019 is for D-jet used in the 2.0L
Also impedance listings are tricky. Its not just exactly high and low. Typically D-jet is about a max of 2.2 ohms. Other "low" impedance injectors can be up too 5 ohms. Everything higher is consider high impedance
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm
And yes....pressure increase most certainly does increase fuel volume delivered. Just like any other fluid....volume = pressure X time.
Time is the best leverage tool but when you don't have it or cant control it...pressure change will work.
The issue is that these injectors cannot handle...safely....over 35 psi without seating issues. That is new. It gets worse with age.
Also....the angle that is ground on pintles is made to create a spray pattern based around a specific pressure range. At much over about 35 psi.....especially at higher pintle lift rates which equal lower rpm....the excessive pressure (actually its the volume created by the excessive pressure)and angle on the pintle can cause the spray cone to revert to a stream.
Ray |
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vlad01 Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010 Posts: 3069 Location: Australia
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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KTPhil wrote: |
VWCOOL wrote: |
Tell us more about this...
How does increasing fuel pressure NOT lead to an increase in fuel flow while the injector is open?
How/why does the Type 3 injector design - old as it is - not respond to this? Does it impede the ability of the injector to open? |
One answer is that there is a narrow pressure range in which the output can be varied with pressure, but outside this range, things go haywire.
At low pressure, the atomization is so poor that there is unburned fuel in the exhaust, so it smells rich but is actually fuel starved. At high pressure, I'm not sure the pintles can operate correctly and so the flow changes. |
LOL what atomization? these old things are like fire hoses anyway. even injectors up to the late 80s, in some cars even early 90s were of this design and just hose fuel in with somewhat of a spray. Actual atomization didn't start until Bosch deflector plate multi hole design came about( Bosch "Design 2", early 90s?)
It maybe that these when the pressure it too low they dribble out rather than spraying out. Linearity of them is obviously shit then.
for increasing the pressure It should be ok to go few PSI more but being such an old design I think they will struggle with linearity a lot! _________________ The best of VW engine development!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BROWqjuTM0g
71 Aussie notchback, the money pit
92 VP vacationer, old faithful never die
95 VR executive, Restored beyond factory
92 VP S Pack, bought it new old |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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vlad01 wrote: |
KTPhil wrote: |
VWCOOL wrote: |
Tell us more about this...
How does increasing fuel pressure NOT lead to an increase in fuel flow while the injector is open?
How/why does the Type 3 injector design - old as it is - not respond to this? Does it impede the ability of the injector to open? |
One answer is that there is a narrow pressure range in which the output can be varied with pressure, but outside this range, things go haywire.
At low pressure, the atomization is so poor that there is unburned fuel in the exhaust, so it smells rich but is actually fuel starved. At high pressure, I'm not sure the pintles can operate correctly and so the flow changes. |
LOL what atomization? these old things are like fire hoses anyway. even injectors up to the late 80s, in some cars even early 90s were of this design and just hose fuel in with somewhat of a spray. Actual atomization didn't start until Bosch deflector plate multi hole design came about( Bosch "Design 2", early 90s?)
It maybe that these when the pressure it too low they dribble out rather than spraying out. Linearity of them is obviously shit then.
for increasing the pressure It should be ok to go few PSI more but being such an old design I think they will struggle with linearity a lot! |
Vlad, you really need to stifle it until you actually know what you are talking about... _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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Actually.....there is not one single fuel injector that actually "atomizes" anything. They produce visible "microdroplets".......period. The venturi in a carburetor actually atomizes the fuel.....it simply cannot keep it homogenized.
For the record.....as microdroplets from injectors go.....
If the pressure is in the right range...and the, conical seat on the inside has no rust or varnish build up....and an owner with 9 thumbs has not dinged up the edges of the pintle.....the D an L injectors atomize just about as well as any other pintle style injector....of which the vast majority of factory injectors STILL are.
The difference in newer style pintle injectors ...like those used on digifant and newer....is higher pressure, smaller diameter pintle and a wider angle ground on the pintle. ....but they atomize only marginally better.....if any at all.
In a side by comparison running off the same rail at D-jet preszure.....a late pintle style "appears" to produce smaller droplets simply because they are putting out less volume during an injection.
Virtually all later pintle style injectors have a smaller pintle diameter than D and L jet.......becuze they:
1. Have higher pressure to multiply X pulsewidth and
2. They have more pulsewidth to play with by far in digital injection systems compared to the mechanical analog cycle of D and the limited bankfire cycle of L-jet.
The disc/plate type system does by far have smaller microdroplets......but is still numerous orders of magnitude from being atomized.....and the disk type injector is also more prone to clogging in the outer grill holes. Nice......but it has its own issues.
Yes smaller microdroplets help.....but the real atomization is done by high velocity air in the port and an opening valve inlet.
And.....if yiu are running any version of bank fire....until you get much over 2000 rpm....your atomization is just as shit as anyone elses...because most of your ports are wet and yhe intake air is busy trying to suck fuel from 3 injectikns ago off the port walls.
The greatest advances of later injectors are not better spray pattern. It is more accurate lift, sustain and closing cycles. Just more accurate.
Ray
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vlad01 Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010 Posts: 3069 Location: Australia
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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Tram wrote: |
vlad01 wrote: |
KTPhil wrote: |
VWCOOL wrote: |
Tell us more about this...
How does increasing fuel pressure NOT lead to an increase in fuel flow while the injector is open?
How/why does the Type 3 injector design - old as it is - not respond to this? Does it impede the ability of the injector to open? |
One answer is that there is a narrow pressure range in which the output can be varied with pressure, but outside this range, things go haywire.
At low pressure, the atomization is so poor that there is unburned fuel in the exhaust, so it smells rich but is actually fuel starved. At high pressure, I'm not sure the pintles can operate correctly and so the flow changes. |
LOL what atomization? these old things are like fire hoses anyway. even injectors up to the late 80s, in some cars even early 90s were of this design and just hose fuel in with somewhat of a spray. Actual atomization didn't start until Bosch deflector plate multi hole design came about( Bosch "Design 2", early 90s?)
It maybe that these when the pressure it too low they dribble out rather than spraying out. Linearity of them is obviously shit then.
for increasing the pressure It should be ok to go few PSI more but being such an old design I think they will struggle with linearity a lot! |
Vlad, you really need to stifle it until you actually know what you are talking about... |
hahaha
mate, I been going EFI conversions and advanced tuning for a good number of years, and now starting to do it professionally.
Pretty sure I know a lot more about it that you.
Thanks for the laugh though.
Here is a design 2 injector which uses deflector plate, 4 hole.
varying pressure 0-80PSI
Video courtesy of The1.
Link
How much better is that than the design 1 that type 3s use!!
To think there is also design 3 (EV6) an now 4 (EV14, with 6-12 hole) which is like a fog of fuel and super lineal across the range.
Design 1 is limited and a fire hose no matter how you look at it. _________________ The best of VW engine development!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BROWqjuTM0g
71 Aussie notchback, the money pit
92 VP vacationer, old faithful never die
95 VR executive, Restored beyond factory
92 VP S Pack, bought it new old |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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vlad01 wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
vlad01 wrote: |
KTPhil wrote: |
VWCOOL wrote: |
Tell us more about this...
How does increasing fuel pressure NOT lead to an increase in fuel flow while the injector is open?
How/why does the Type 3 injector design - old as it is - not respond to this? Does it impede the ability of the injector to open? |
One answer is that there is a narrow pressure range in which the output can be varied with pressure, but outside this range, things go haywire.
At low pressure, the atomization is so poor that there is unburned fuel in the exhaust, so it smells rich but is actually fuel starved. At high pressure, I'm not sure the pintles can operate correctly and so the flow changes. |
LOL what atomization? these old things are like fire hoses anyway. even injectors up to the late 80s, in some cars even early 90s were of this design and just hose fuel in with somewhat of a spray. Actual atomization didn't start until Bosch deflector plate multi hole design came about( Bosch "Design 2", early 90s?)
It maybe that these when the pressure it too low they dribble out rather than spraying out. Linearity of them is obviously shit then.
for increasing the pressure It should be ok to go few PSI more but being such an old design I think they will struggle with linearity a lot! |
Vlad, you really need to stifle it until you actually know what you are talking about... |
hahaha
mate, I been going EFI conversions and advanced tuning for a good number of years, and now starting to do it professionally.
Pretty sure I know a lot more about it that you.
Thanks for the laugh though.
Here is a design 2 injector which uses deflector plate, 4 hole.
varying pressure 0-80PSI
Video courtesy of The1.
Link
How much better is that than the design 1 that type 3s use!!
To think there is also design 3 (EV6) an now 4 (EV14, with 6-12 hole) which is like a fog of fuel and super lineal across the range.
Design 1 is limited and a fire hose no matter how you look at it. |
I've likely been doing it professionally longer than you've been alive.
The contention you made is that Type 3 injectors don't atomize fuel. That's hogwash. Whether later designs are more efficient at it is entirely beside the point.
The other thing you advised was just increasing pressure on a D-jet system with no consequences. That is also hogwash. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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Stuartzickefoose Samba Post Whore
Joined: February 07, 2008 Posts: 10350 Location: SoCal for now...
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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Tram wrote: |
vlad01 wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
Vlad, you really need to stifle it until you actually know what you are talking about... |
Pretty sure I know a lot more about it that you.
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I've likely been doing it professionally longer than you've been alive.
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i think i really want to hear this argument live.
_________________ Stuart Zickefoose
2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
206-841-7324
[email protected] |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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Stuartzickefoose wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
vlad01 wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
Vlad, you really need to stifle it until you actually know what you are talking about... |
Pretty sure I know a lot more about it that you.
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I've likely been doing it professionally longer than you've been alive.
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i think i really want to hear this argument live.
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You probably wouldn't be able to understand anything vlad is talking about- notwithstanding him being Australian. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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Stuartzickefoose Samba Post Whore
Joined: February 07, 2008 Posts: 10350 Location: SoCal for now...
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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Tram wrote: |
Stuartzickefoose wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
vlad01 wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
Vlad, you really need to stifle it until you actually know what you are talking about... |
Pretty sure I know a lot more about it that you.
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I've likely been doing it professionally longer than you've been alive.
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i think i really want to hear this argument live.
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You probably wouldn't be able to understand anything vlad is talking about- notwithstanding him being Australian. |
its just fun knowing you already won, yet he still thinks hes right...... _________________ Stuart Zickefoose
2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
206-841-7324
[email protected] |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:49 am Post subject: |
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vlad01 wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
vlad01 wrote: |
KTPhil wrote: |
VWCOOL wrote: |
Tell us more about this...
How does increasing fuel pressure NOT lead to an increase in fuel flow while the injector is open?
How/why does the Type 3 injector design - old as it is - not respond to this? Does it impede the ability of the injector to open? |
One answer is that there is a narrow pressure range in which the output can be varied with pressure, but outside this range, things go haywire.
At low pressure, the atomization is so poor that there is unburned fuel in the exhaust, so it smells rich but is actually fuel starved. At high pressure, I'm not sure the pintles can operate correctly and so the flow changes. |
LOL what atomization? these old things are like fire hoses anyway. even injectors up to the late 80s, in some cars even early 90s were of this design and just hose fuel in with somewhat of a spray. Actual atomization didn't start until Bosch deflector plate multi hole design came about( Bosch "Design 2", early 90s?)
It maybe that these when the pressure it too low they dribble out rather than spraying out. Linearity of them is obviously shit then.
for increasing the pressure It should be ok to go few PSI more but being such an old design I think they will struggle with linearity a lot! |
Vlad, you really need to stifle it until you actually know what you are talking about... |
hahaha
mate, I been going EFI conversions and advanced tuning for a good number of years, and now starting to do it professionally.
Pretty sure I know a lot more about it that you.
Thanks for the laugh though.
Here is a design 2 injector which uses deflector plate, 4 hole.
varying pressure 0-80PSI
Video courtesy of The1.
Link
How much better is that than the design 1 that type 3s use!!
To think there is also design 3 (EV6) an now 4 (EV14, with 6-12 hole) which is like a fog of fuel and super lineal across the range.
Design 1 is limited and a fire hose no matter how you look at it. |
Thank you very much for the video. It proves several key points that I think you are ignoring. ....especially related to pressure.
It just proves my earlier point. Having seen the spray patterns of literally thousands of injectors of virtually all but the very latest EV4 variety......I can tell you that your video proves several things:
1. As you note.....you (or whomever took the video)....varied the fuel pressure just like a modern digital system can. And......it showed HORRIBLE linearity in microdroplet size across a WIDE range of fuel pressure......but showed decent, consistency across a narrow to moderate range of pressure. At highest preasures....that injector was no more or less a firehose than any other injector.
What that points out....is exactly why the D-jet injector typically fails to impress many who work with later model injection. Its because many people keep trying to use the injector like a modern injector. You cannot. It is designed to spray proper microdroplets.....at a specifc range of pressure. ....and that range is narrow.
2. You preach linearity in injection rate across a range. Newer injectors are more linear.....across a wider range of combined pressures at varying pulsewidth. ....but are nowhere near linear across a wide range. That is precisely why EV 4 has gone to more and smaller holes in the nozzles......for better control across higher pressure ranges.
3. It is clear from the video.....that just like a D-jet injector or even later pintle styles with smaller diameter, higher lift and wider pintle angles......the EV 2 injector...reverts to stream at higher pressures that are outside of its design range.
I see people making this mistaken analysis with, early injectors all the time. You see it especially from those making the injector flow lists....as they are listing the D-jet and other early style injectors at 28 lbs/hr at 42 psi.......which is incorrect because......
A. They cannot be tested at over 32 psi.....because it destroys the spray pattern AND the linearity, because the pintle cannot properly reseal ....becausec of lower spring pressure and solenoid drive pressure. The linearity is not poor on the early injectors.
It appears to be poor because most are testing them at too high of a pressure range.
B. At the proper pressure range....and within the design range of 25-85% pulsewidth....the D-jet injector produces micro-droplets in the same range as any other pintle style injector up to..... but not equal to.... the EV-2 DISC type injector. ......and the D-type injector within these parameters....does not put out 28 lbs hr....it puts out a hair over 25 lbs/hr.
Also.....just from experience....in the future if you, really want to properly show atomization of injectors (atomization is a poor description word)....stay within the design pressure range, stay within the design pulsewidth range....and back light the spray pattern for filming. You will see a much different result.
Also.....if you call the level of spray pattern shown in that video....better than D-jet......it is clear to me that you have never seen the spray pattern of a properly functioning D-jet injector. .....at proper pressure.
EDIT: also lets be clear here.....linearity of fuel VOLUME flow is quite good on all of these injectors from D to EV2 and 4. They are all good.
However ...as your video clearly demonstrates.....linearity of FLOW VOLUME does NOT equal linearity of atomization/micro-droplet size.
The real benefit of the later disc style injectors is clearlly not linearity of atomization. It is linearity of flow Volume control over a much wider range.....using pressure variation. D-jet injectors are NOT designed for wide pressure variation. If you try that with them...they will fail to inject a proper pattern.
Dont blame the injectoor design for improper usage.
Ray |
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werker Redwood Wrencher
Joined: March 08, 2004 Posts: 308 Location: Separating the drum from the axle...
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:58 am Post subject: |
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Stuartzickefoose wrote: |
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Yep, come for the heads, stay for the injector circus.
Get off my porch? Nah, pass the pop-corn!
God I love this place. I don't what I'd do without Retired VW Service Techs (Tram, Ray?, Russ ) dishing out info.
There is always hillbilly-shadetree hunches as well. _________________ 72 Squareback
9th air-cooled
Proud Member #8, SBS (Stock Bus Society)
---------------------------------------
Gremlin Killer
Robert Bills wrote: |
The guys on this forum can talk you through any issues you may have. Don't give up on the fuel injection - your Type 3 will thank you. |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:27 am Post subject: |
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werker wrote: |
Stuartzickefoose wrote: |
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Yep, come for the heads, stay for the injector circus.
Get off my porch? Nah, pass the pop-corn!
God I love this place. I don't what I'd do without Retired VW Service Techs (Tram, Ray?, Russ ) dishing out info.
There is always hillbilly-shadetree hunches as well. |
I'm not retired- just tired. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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